7 First Time Tips for After the Wedding with Ellen Holloway

Sarah and her amazing friend Ellen Holloway of the Charting Towards Intimacy podcast share 7 tips for engaged women preparing for their first time after the wedding. They chat about setting expectations for yourself and with your husband-to-be, what essential items you are going to want to have on hand, butterflies in the stomach, the supreme importance of FOREPLAY, being like a flower, lingerie, and having fun. 

Ellen Holloway's Free Foreplay Guide for Catholic Women

Ellen Holloway's Charting Towards Intimacy podcast

Ginger and Peach Catholic-owned model-free lingerie boutique

Mentionables Model-free lingerie (10% OFF CODE: BARTEL)

Free Enhancing Marital Intimacy Guide for Catholic Women: 9 Skills for Body, Mind, and Spirit (for married and engaged women)

Transcript

Sarah: 0:50

I'm so excited for today's guest. Ellen Holloway is the host of the Charting Towards Intimacy podcast and also the creator of courses at Vines in Full Bloom, including the Orgasm course for Catholic women. She is also, like me, a coach and speaker who specializes in sex and marriage and intimacy. And she's certified in the fundamentals of sex therapy from the Buehler Institute. And she's pursuing a master's in theology of the body. Married with seven kids, married with, married with three kids, married seven years. Welcome Ellen. So happy to have you today.

Ellen: 1:26

Happy to be here. I wonder if that's prophetic. Like, will I eventually have seven kids?

Sarah: 1:31

Right. In theology, it's like the number of perfection. So yeah, I'm at three for you. I'm so excited to talk about our topic today of what every engaged woman should know because they should know the teachings of the church, but there's also a lot of practical aspects. Wouldn't you agree?

Ellen: 1:49

Oh my gosh. So many. It's so funny. We have a podcast episode on my podcast called tips for your first time, and it is. outperforms every episode by like strides. Like so many people want to know, like, what do we need to know before we're getting married? Like before we're engaging in sex with our husband, like, what are these things that we need to know? And nobody wants to talk about it. And if they do want to talk about it, it's in a very secular and uncomfortable or possibly even like pornographic or inappropriate way. And so it's so good to have conversations like this in, you know, a safe and super authentically Catholic space.

Sarah: 2:30

And here's the thing, it's, it's not just engaged women married women also, you know, may feel like, I didn't really know what I was doing when we got married and started having sex. And, you know, I need some remedial education here. So this episode is for basically all married and engaged women, because I bet among among the tips. and skills we're going to talk about, you will find something that can even help you now, no matter how many years or decades you may have been married.

Ellen: 2:58

Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know how many people I tell that you need to use lubrication. Like that's number one. And, and, and women married for 20 years, they're like, wait, It's okay to use lubrication. Like that's, that's not against church teaching. No, it's absolutely not. I know. I just jumped into like tips. Number one, my number one thing is lubrication. Sometimes. It's the woman's body is able to lubricate enough, but it's really only sometimes. And it is so common for there to just not be enough lubrication. And what this can lead to, like if you are not well lubricated enough is pain or even like just the impossibility. of intercourse and penetration because there's just like too much friction and they're like the body parts are just like sticking together. I mean, if you think about like two kind of sweaty body parts, they usually don't glide. They kind of stick. Right. So we need something to help us. Glide so that we can have pleasure and enjoyment, or at least it just not be painful.

Sarah: 4:08

Absolutely. So yeah, women who, uh, engaged women, fiancees get, get yourself some lube. What kind of lube do you recommend Ellen? Cause I know there are different schools of thought on this. Some people say coconut oil. Some say, no, that's not good for the pH of your body.

Ellen: 4:28

I'm team almond or jojoba oil. And here's why. And here's why I am not team coconut oil. If you want to get into the science of it is almond and jojoba oil, they have more like their pH. Okay. Oils technically don't have a pH, but they have. The properties of a more alkaline pH, which is what is closer to the, your vagina's pH is an alkaline environment. Coconut oil has the properties of an acidic pH. So it's actually going to move the pH of your vagina to an acidic state, which can lead to yeast infections. And I know some people are like, Oh, but coconut oil is antifungal. The antifungal properties are not high enough in coconut oil to counteract. The pH imbalance that you're creating in the vagina and like the whole vaginal, uh, vaginal canal. So I just like some women are able to use coconut oil with no problem, but I'm just, I'm team almond and jojoba oil because why risk it? Like you don't want to give yourself a yeast infection if you can avoid it by just using a different oil. Jojoba oil is a little bit more expensive. Almond oil is really inexpensive. And. Also, you know, what's cool about using oil for lubrication is if you share an Amazon account. With like your parents, like I do, no one knows what you're ordering. Almond oil for like, it's a massage oil. That's that's what it's like advertised as as a massage oil. Like your parents do not realize you are ordering lube. Love

Sarah: 6:04

it. That's an added benefit. Absolutely. So I'd like to imagine we have this young woman, we're taking her out to lunch and her marriage, her wedding is in three months and she wants to know all the things, you know, that, that yeah, tips and advice. So we'll tell her about the lube. I think I would like to tell her about. So when to come together and I would like to tell her that you do not need to do it on the night of your wedding day, that actually it might not be the best situation for making this a good experience because you're worn out and your nervous system has already been highly stimulated, you know, from all the pouring out of energy and attention that is going out that it might work better if you're rested, if you have a day or two to kind of calm and collect yourself. What are your thoughts, Ellen, about timing? Absolutely.

Ellen: 6:54

Yeah. I, I think there's a lot of pressure to like come together that wedding night and it can just be so overwhelming. But the biggest thing that I recommend is like, ladies, if you're listening to this and you're, you're engaged and you're like looking toward that and you're like, wow, I really like that idea of like not having sex on the wedding night. Make sure that you have a conversation with your fiance. about that, that you are kind of thinking it might be a good idea to wait a day or two, because I can guarantee your fiance is not thinking that, like, he is so excited. He's so excited. And it's a good, it's such a good desire. It's not like he's just like this animal who can't control himself. He's so excited. And if you don't have a conversation about that possibility of waiting a day or two, that. Disappointment is crushing. And we don't want to do that. We don't want to like crush and disappoint our spouse right there on the first night of being married. So, you know, I'm, I'm all for like waiting a couple of days, you know, maybe wait till you're on the honeymoon and it's just relaxing day. Maybe you go to. Like, yeah, like wait a week, wait, or, or even longer, you know, if you need to, but you know, you don't have to do it on a wedding date, but just make sure that that's okay with both of you.

Sarah: 8:09

Yes. That you're on the same page that you're, yeah, managing expectations is really important. I mean, I just think that it's more to visualize the scenario. So you have just seen. Um, all your best friends and family and had this big formal event, the wedding, right? And you've been prepping and planning for this for a long time and you are in this fancy dress and when you get to wherever you get to at the end of that day, your hotel room or if you're, you know, going to your new home together, what are you doing? You're getting out of that dress and the petticoat. You're taking lots of bobby pins out of your hair, like your body. Maybe

Ellen: 8:47

you're taking a hundred buttons out. Right, exactly! If you have one of those button dresses, oh my gosh, it takes like an hour to get out of your dress.

Sarah: 8:55

Right, anyway, just the point is, it's a big event. The wedding is a big event. And the first time you make love, that's a big event too. So why don't we space these events out? There is nothing in church teaching that says that you have to consummate your marriage with sexual intimacy the day that you are married, or the night of it. You will get to it. It's okay. There's no rush on this and you will really be doing yourself a favor and your love life as a married couple a favor by starting out, you know, in the best possible circumstances. So in our case, we had studied Symptothermal NFP ahead of time and knew that we needed to, you know, we had discerned to avoid trying to conceive during the first, you know, few months of our relationship. Marriage. And so we could see the writing on the wall that it was going to be fertile time on wedding day. So both of us, and you know, we were communicating really well about what the chart was looking like and what our plans were. So both my husband and I were totally on board and we had an evening wedding too. So by the time the reception was done and we got home. It was very late and we had a flight the next day to our honeymoon. So neither of us was thinking that that was going to be when it would happen. And it was really great just to collapse and cuddle at the end of the big day and then save all that, you know, the figuring out lovemaking for a couple of days later into the honeymoon. So just, I've had students in my course say, I heard this advice on you know, previous podcasts, probably yours, Ellen. But then I thought to myself, but not us. We're going to do it and then it turned, then the reason she's in my course and I'm coaching her is because it actually was not a good experience and they're still trying to figure it out and she was, you know, overtaxed really that day and then you kind of have to go back and start over again and, and learn how to relax. First and can really connect. So anyway, yeah. Consider waiting. Let's call that tip number two. Yeah. Consider waiting. I love that. Yeah. Well Ellen, you mentioned seven tips. So now I'm just, and I think everyone else who heard this, we want to know all seven. So the lube was one. I mentioned seven. Did I say seven? You said you had a podcast in which you share seven tips, so you don't have to like share all seven. Okay. Bye. Sounds like you've got a number of them. So what are some of the top ones you want? For sure. Our lady at, you know, we're taking out to branch. She's going to get married in a few months. Yeah. We want to make sure she knows.

Ellen: 11:21

Okay. Another thing that I really want her to know is that the feeling of nervousness and the feeling of excitement do the same thing in your body. They make your tummy flutter. They give you that like feeling there that they feel the same in your body. So. When you're nervous, because you probably will be nervous as you're getting ready for your first time, remind yourself that you are also wildly excited about this. And Just that simple reframe can help so much in like calming down those nerves because your body doesn't have to do anything different to recognize that it's actually in fact it's excited instead of nervous or excited and nervous. But if we, if you just like. Can tell yourself that like, I am so I'm excited about this. And the reason I'm feeling these butterflies in my stomach and the tingly on my arms or however your body processes nervous excitement, it is, you are excited about this. And cause I think that the nerves can really get us all like clenched up. Yeah. And when you're really tight, I mean, this is kind of going into another tip here is like when you're really tight. It's really hard to actually have sex, to have intercourse. Your body, as a woman, needs to relax. It actually literally needs to open. Your vaginal canal needs to widen. And the, the vaginal opening needs to widen, and the vaginal canal needs to lengthen. So there is this, like, relaxation and opening that needs to happen in order for your body to even be able So when we can reframe the nervousness as excitement, and we can just kind of just allow that clenching to go away, we're going to be able to get aroused a lot easier, we're going to have a lot more fun with it, and it might actually be possible instead of like literally impossible because our body is so clenched up and nervous and tight.

Sarah: 13:28

Oh, that's really great. The brain is the most important sex organ, right? And so this is just huge. Once you can learn how to control your mindset as well as regulate your emotions, this is like just a huge part of the. the work of learning how to make love really well and enjoy it and let it be this beautiful experience that, you know, is a reflection of the love of the Trinity that we know it is meant to be from our church's teachings and the theology of the body. But yeah, that is so great. What a great hack to just Just recategorize the anxious feelings and say like, Oh, this is excitement. So then you're not freaking out and getting into this anxiety spiral about it. Okay. Excitement. Excitement is exciting. It means we're looking forward to something good. That's wonderful. All right. What else would you like this foreplay? I want to talk about

Ellen: 14:23

foreplay. Let's definitely talk about foreplay. Okay. And I just want to mention that I actually just at the time of this recording, and I don't know when this podcast is going out, but it'll still be available. I just created a completely free foreplay course that I want everybody to take. I want, it's just like, I want every woman to sign up for this course and just learn about foreplay. Because where can they find it, Ellen? Finds in full bloom.com/foreplay. Super, super easy, we'll link it in the

Sarah: 14:50

notes the course finds in full bloom.com/foreplay. Great. Yeah. Oh, what a gift to the world. Thank you. Ellen

Ellen: 14:58

but okay. Foreplay. I think a lot of times we think of foreplay as sort of this extra tack on. That might be nice to have. Uh huh, right! And that is the wrong way to think about floor play. It's like

Sarah: 15:14

the main

Ellen: 15:15

Floor play! Part of

Sarah: 15:16

the main event.

Ellen: 15:18

It is! It is a pivotal part. It is not optional. What I was mentioning before about how the woman's body needs to open and elongate, right? The vaginal canal needs to elongate and the vaginal opening needs to open. That happens During foreplay, the woman's body needs to get to a certain arousal threshold before her body is ready for intercourse. The man's body is going to get ready for intercourse faster. I mean, probably without fail, especially if it's like your first time, like the man's body is going to get there much faster. And so this is something that you, you and your new husband. We'll need to focus on is it really gives some focused attention to foreplay and to arousing the woman's body. Maybe with manual stimulation oral stimulation is perfectly morally elicit or just like lots of heavy petting, touching, making out, hugging, kissing, like, like just really focusing on helping the woman's body. get aroused, blood flowing toward the vulva area and allowing everything to really truly like just like relax and open up. You can think of, I mean, as like kitschy as this is, you can think about a flower opening up. Like that's what needs to happen. You're, you're, petals need to open up so that you can like be the flower needs to open up so that it can be germinated by like bees and things like that. Right. So your body needs to open up to be ready for that procreative act that, that the possibility of that procreative act. Right.

Sarah: 16:53

I think that's a beautiful image. And yes, do you have, like, I like to teach women about like. Time expectations because our arousal curve as women the way God designed it to work Well, it is much longer and slower than men's arousal curve or should we say men's arousal curve is much shorter and faster and more intense than women's right? Neither is the norm for both sexes And neither is wrong. They're just different, right? But understanding that, then I like to recommend to women to take at least, you know, I would say normally in the court, like after you've been married a while, 20 to 30 minutes minimum of foreplay. But this first time after your wedding. Say you're, you know, a few days into your honeymoon, you're all relaxed and whatnot, like block out an afternoon or a morning or, you know, start the evening early because I want, I would like this woman and her fiance to, to plan on taking at least an hour, maybe, maybe more, hour and a half their first time they're going to come together with lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of foreplay making out. And it's not all just the. Right. The explicitly stimulating erogenous zones, like we kind of ease into this first by lots of caressing and touching and kissing all over the body before

Ellen: 18:12

we can, um, right. Things like showers, baths together, like, you know, things that are going to help you relax. Yeah, I, I really encourage like as much time as, as is possible each time to, to spend in foreplay. But we don't always have. Not much time, especially if you're like married and you've got a couple kids. Um, yeah, flexible. I, I say like an absolute minimum of 10 minutes, like absolutely minimum. But yeah, I mean, I think ideally we're spending more like 20 to 30 minutes in foreplay on a regular basis. And I really. Especially in those first couple of weeks, as you guys are learning to have sex together. I mean, let's first just reframe the fact that you're not just going to have sex together. You need to learn how to have sex together first. And that takes some time. No one sits down at a piano and immediately plays a beautiful concerto. What am I trying to say? Concerto! Concerto. Oh, thank you. It got stuck in my throat there. Nobody does that. That takes years of, like, regular, intense practice to be able to play something beautiful. I took years of piano lessons and the best I can do is hot cross buns, realistically. Like, so We need to recognize that like coming together in this intimate union, it's going to take some practice and that that practice is good. And sometimes that practice might be hard and sometimes that practice might not be as fun. I think most of the time that practice can be really fun, but sometimes it won't be. And. Like, that that is okay. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with your sex life. There's nothing wrong with your marriage if sex isn't just like immediately perfect. Because it's not going to be. And it's not about lowering your expectations. It's not like, oh, just lower your expectations. It'll, it'll just be crappy the first time. That's not what I'm trying to say. It's more just recognize that this is something new for hopefully it's something new for both of you. Maybe it's not something new for both of you, but this is new being having sex as a married couple with the graces of the, your sacramental marriage. That's new. That is absolutely new. And there's so much goodness and like so much grace in that. And. And it just, we, we have to learn new skills. It takes time to learn new skills.

Sarah: 20:47

Absolutely. That is so important. Really wonderful to emphasize that, Ellen. Thank you. Well, I've been counting. I think we're up to four. Okay. I'm not sure where the seven

Ellen: 20:59

came from. I feel like it might have slipped out of my mouth or something.

Sarah: 21:02

I don't remember. I like

Ellen: 21:04

it.

Sarah: 21:04

Our brains like numbers. It's true. We can come up with seven. We have the loop for number one. We have consider waiting for tip number two. Um, oh shoot, oh, change anxiety to excitement for number three. And then here we've just been talking about foreplay for tip number four. Lots of it. Lots of it. Lots of it. You can give it. Okay. She, we have time that, you know, we're, we have more coffee in our coffee cups at the coffee shop. Perfect. But we have time for like three more last bits of advice. What else would we tell her? What would you want to make sure she knows? Okay.

Ellen: 21:38

I want her to have a little bit of fun. I want her to just like, just, just spend a couple of minutes just thinking about like, what if, if my sex life was exactly what I wanted it to be, how would I act? How would I act in our, our coming together for the first time? Or how would I act normally? What would I do? Would I be someone who gives like a striptease? Would I be someone who dresses up in really sexy lingerie? Would I be someone who dresses up in really just pretty, you know, super lacy lingerie or just like a nice nightgown? Would I be someone who undresses my husband? Would I be someone who pulls my husband over into the shower? Like, how? Think about, who, who would you be if your sex life was exactly where you want it to be? And then? Do that because it'll be so much fun. Like it's so much fun to do things like that. And even if you're like, Ooh, I don't know if that's me. I don't know if I'm the type of person who undresses my husband and pulls him to the shower. But you can be that if that's of interest to you. Like you can be that woman, even if you're not yet. And like, be willing to be awkward about it, too. Like, again. You have to learn a new skill, and if it's kind of weird the first time, that's okay. Yeah, being able to laugh together.

Sarah: 23:01

That laughing relaxes you and releases oxytocin also, and it's going to help everything. I love that. Yeah. It's okay even just to name the awkwardness in the moment. Be like, uh, I'm a little silly right now, but come here, or whatever. You know, just because this is all about being vulnerable. And sharing your awkwardness. That is just going to share more of who you really are. and bring you closer. But I love that. Yeah, it's okay. I think you know, if we've been pure and observed, you know, the moral laws and waited until marriage, which is great. We want everyone to do that. This is for your good. And if you haven't, you know, God's mercy is so great and he can make you new. So don't worry. But it can be quite a switch to flip to think of yourself as a sexy woman now. And then also like, is a sexy woman still a holy woman? Is she still a good Catholic woman? Like. You know, that dichotomy have in our brain of like, well, a good woman is just maternal and caring and gentle and loving. And, you know, that's kind of opposite from sexy and assertive, right? But you can integrate these two parts of your femininity into one whole vibrant, passionate woman. And yes, have fun. And I love these suggestions you have Ellen. Um, okay. And what else for our last two, we've got.

Ellen: 24:23

All right, uh, I'm going to say lingerie. Check out my, one of my favorites is mentionables. There's also there's actually a Catholic woman. She runs ginger and peach lingerie. That's another one to look into. Both of those are model free, which is so much more comfortable to, to lingerie shop in model free areas. And like, Pick out, here's, here's what I would suggest for every like engaged couple is you as a woman, go pick out something that you really like, and then ask your future husband to pick out something that he really likes. And like, you're going to end up with like, probably two pretty different pieces. And it, it's just so fun because you can kind of, you can learn so much about each other. By what kind of lingerie the other person likes which, and I think it just becomes a really fun, like, it can be a little present that you give to your husband or a little present that your husband gives to you and, or just something fun to like do later in the honeymoon of like pull out the lingerie piece that you picked out. And I think lingerie just can be. It can be anything from like super, super sexy, or it can be like a really pretty nightgown that you like that just just feel like makes you feel pretty or confident. Lingerie can just make the event so special because it's just, it's right you wore a very special dress for your wedding and coming together in the marital act. is equally as important. You know, this is, this is the like part of the sacrament is, is this consummation of you guys coming together, you're speaking with your bodies, the words that you spoke together, the vows that you gave Before, sorry, during the altar. Yeah. At the altar. Right. And now you're speaking it with your body and you're saying, I'm coming to you freely, totally faithfully and fruit. And, and I'm willing for this union to be fruitful. Like a lot, like, like dress up, right. Dress up for that event. It's, I think it could be a lot of fun.

Sarah: 26:38

Yeah, that is so great. It's so good to remember. Yes. Each time you make love as a married couple, you are renewing your wedding vows. This is the body language of your wedding vows. Like you just said, and it is, yeah. It is a moment of grace and building your intimacy and like you talked about earlier, this is something that you're going to craft together over the whole course of your married life. You know, your own unique sexual relationship but yeah, it is something that is worthy of care and attention and special clothes. Yeah. And I think it's, it's great. Yeah. It can really help you you know, wearing something lacy or frilly or pretty or sexy or strappy or whatever the style may be. silky. It can really help you get into that more sensuous, erotic frame of mind that can really help. Yes, but, but maybe, uh, maybe what you want also is, is just to feel comfortable and not chilly. And that's okay too, to wear, you know, a cozy muumuu or, you know, a really nice pajama set or sweat pants, even in t shirts that don't have rips and stains that you feel comfortable in.

Ellen: 27:44

Get yourself like a new pair of underwear and a new pajama set to take with you on your honeymoon. Like, if you're like, I just can't do lingerie. I don't want to do it. Or even if you do want to do lingerie, like also get yourself a brand new pajama set that you love or that's your favorite color or something like that. Or get something that matches your new husband, right? Get a pajama set that matches. That might be fun. I don't know. Or maybe your husband would hate that. Mine would, mine would not like that. He's like, I don't want to match. I don't

Sarah: 28:11

know. Yeah. Dress for success. Dress for the, the, the sex you want to have. Yes. Ooh. I like that. Oh goodness. Okay. So for the last. I just, I do not want this young woman who's about to get married to leave the coffee shop where we're sitting now having brunch with her and, you know, sharing the tips. I don't want her to leave without knowing that penetration alone is really not likely to bring a woman sexual pleasure to, if this is her expectation or what she's expect, you know, assuming is going to happen. We need to tell her, honey, that's. Not where, where most of it happens. That do you want to tell more Ellen? I know you're so expert at all of how the body parts work and

Ellen: 28:58

not, but this is, this is my O course, the orgasm course, but yeah, the woman's body has an organ that is. Created solely for the purpose of sexual pleasure. It has no other function than sexual pleasure. That's the clitoris. The clitoris is actually a mainly internal organ. It has a tiny little head. The glands of the clitoris is what you can find right above the urethral opening. So stimulation of that glands This is typically one of the best ways to help a woman get sexually aroused. So this might be, you know, using hands, manual stimulation from your husband oral stimulation. The clitoris can be stimulated by pressure on that area. So you know, just like Deep intense hugging and making out can bring that stimulation to the clitoris. But just like I think really recognizing that the woman's body that which is different than the man's the woman's body is typically going to need some like direct stimulation to get to sexual arousal sexual pleasure, and especially toward orgasm, like it's. It's likely not just going to happen by having intercourse. Now it is possible to receive an orgasm prior to intercourse. It's possible to receive it during intercourse. And morally

Sarah: 30:28

illicit. What's morally illicit? Yeah. And it's morally illicit for those.

Ellen: 30:31

Yeah. Okay. Morally. It is possible for a woman to experience multiple orgasms. It's not necessary. It's not required. Some women don't want to receive multiple orgasms and that's okay. But I think also just like we've kind of talked about, you know, you're not going to be good at it the first time, like recognize that you and your husband need to learn how you receive sexual pleasure and how you get to orgasm. And so. Like, just recognize, like, it, it might be really hard to learn how to orgasm the first time. And it might take a while, it might take several times coming together to, to figure out that sexual pleasure piece and that that's really, it's okay. And so long as you are not experiencing pain during intercourse, it's okay. If intercourse isn't particularly pleasurable because you guys are like learning this process. It's, it's really okay. And there's again, nothing wrong with you, nothing wrong with your husband and nothing wrong with your marriage and sex life. Like it's part of the learning process. And I hope that you can learn how to orgasm quickly. I want you to I, I desire that for you because it's so good and it's so unitive when both of you guys can reach climax and it's even more unitive if you can reach it at the same time. But these are skills, they're skills that we need to learn. And so just like, just be okay with the fact that it's a skill that needs to be learned.

Sarah: 31:59

Right. Right. And like the learning happens through lots and lots of very good, very open. very honest communication. Yeah, you have to share like hot, cold. Yeah, you have to practice. And for some women, you should know that direct clitoral stimulation may be painful. So move to indirect stimulation, you know, stimulating right near the clitoris or around it, or yeah, um, you know, breathing on or something, or, you know, a cup tan just over the area. But yes. That's so important. Ellen, I love what you've said before when you came as a guest expert in my, my delight course when you shared with the students in my course that women should all know that your sexual pleasure is just as important as your husband's. I think that's really an important message. Yeah. Just as important.

Ellen: 32:50

Yeah. There's no

Sarah: 32:52

time. Like

Ellen: 32:53

it is worth. Aiming for, and, and in fact, John Paul II when he was still a bishop, so he was Karol Wojtyla, he wrote this book called Love and Responsibility. It's a fantastic book. It's also a super deep philosophical book, so might be a little tough to crack open. It's okay. I've taken, like, several courses on this particular book in order to gain the insights from it. I think Sarah has too, probably. Yes. I read it in grad school. Yeah. But one of the things that Carol Boyce Hewitt talks about is that it is actually a justice issue if the woman is not receiving an orgasm during sex. So, you know, it's like, look guys, this celebrate priest recognized that the female orgasm is so important that it is an issue of justice. It is. It is unjust if the woman is not receiving an orgasm. And so it is worth the time and in fact it is just, it is fair, you know, for you and your husband to work toward that and to spend time working on, on your orgasm and your sexual pleasure.

Sarah: 34:06

Absolutely. So important. Really good. I guess. The bonus tip I would tell her before we all part ways is that you can pray about this together with your fiance and new husband. Once you get married, just like. Following the example of Tobiah and Sarah in the book of Tobit, chapter 8, they kneel and pray together on their wedding night before they go to bed. It's this really beautiful prayer and that you can start this off right from the beginning of your marriage to, you know, consider the habit of praying together before or during or after lovemaking. Prayers that God will bless your union, that will help you really communicate yourselves to each other. All the intentions you have. It's okay. You can pray about this. God is not going to cringe if you're praying about your sex life because he created it.

Ellen: 34:53

Yes. He actually really wants you to.

Sarah: 34:56

Yes. Yes. Awesome. Oh, Ellen, thank you so much. Really appreciate you coming on to share all these marvelous tips. And again, you can find Ellen on her podcast. at Charting Toward, Towards Intimacy. Towards, with the S, right? Toward. No S. No S. No S! Oh my gosh, I'm sorry. Okay, Toward. No S. Intimacy. And VinesInFullBloom. com, right? Yes. Awesome. Alright, well God bless you all, and thank you so much, Ellen. Thanks for having me.