My Delight with Sarah Bartel

The Steps to Healing Past Sexual Trauma, with Catholic Therapist Dr. Mario Sacasa

• Nathan Bartel

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"It's a marvel how resilient we are." This episode cannot take the place of individual therapy, but it CAN educate and encourage you about the possibilities for healing from past sexual trauma in order to enjoy lovemaking in marriage in this conversation rooted in hope and resilience. 

Suppose a wife cringes when her husband touches her shoulder in a certain way and suggests they go to bed early that night. She wants to run away. She definitely does NOT want to head upstairs and engage in intimacy, even though she loves her husband. When she was younger, someone abused her sexually, and this whole realm of sexuality still feels terrible for her. If she works with a good therapist, what steps will she learn to take to go from wanting to run away to tolerating that touch on her shoulder... to eventually enjoying it, and even heading upstairs with some enthusiasm? That is what you will learn in this episode.

Sarah is joined by Dr. Mario Sacasa, LMFT, a popular speaker, retreat leader, and course creator. Mario is the host of the Always Hope podcast and has served on the faculty of Notre Dame Seminary, Divine Mercy University, and the Institute for Priestly Formation. He brings an incredible combination of knowledge, spiritual insight, and practical steps to this important conversation. 

Sarah and Mario talk about the importance of communication between husband and wife when there is a history of past sexual trauma for one or both of them. In this episode, you'll hear some of the topics that the couple would benefit from addressing, as well as how that communication can help the other spouse understand the patience and gentleness that are needed as the healing spouse goes through their process. Right at the end, Mario asks Sarah a moral theology question about real-life imperfect outcomes that could occur during this process. 


Find more great conversations  with Dr. Mario Sacasa on dating, marriage, sexuality, and the misunderstood virtue of hope on his Always Hope podcast!

His Dating Well course takes young adults by the hand guides
them through the challenges of the modern dating scene.

His course on Overcoming Stress and Anxiety, produced by Good Catholic Media, offers information and skills to beat anxious thoughts.



Free Enhancing Marital Intimacy Guide for Catholic Women: 9 Skills for Body, Mind, and Spirit (for married and engaged women)


Sarah Bartel:

Welcome to my delight. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Mario Sacasa. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist and has been in practice for 20 years. Integrating the riches of the Catholic faith with sound counseling practice is the aim of his career and influences all his professional endeavors. Dr. Sacasa is the host of Always Hope, a wonderful podcasts, providing solutions to a better life, grounded in faith and psychological science. He travels the country offering lectures on dating, marriage, sexuality, and the misunderstood virtue of hope. He's a creator of two online courses Dating Well, which helps young adults navigate the modern dating scene. I highly recommend it. I've had a chance to look through the course and think it's just really beautifully put together, so I highly recommend that if any of you want to, check it out for yourselves or maybe pass it on to adult children have or teen children in the home. And he also created a course called Overcoming Stress and Anxiety, which offers clear guidance for being stressed in life, which sounds like a really great course also. Mario, thank you so much for being on this call. I'm very, excited to be able to tap into your expertise, as a counselor, especially looking at this question of overcoming past sexual trauma. I know it's just a very common thing. I just taught the. The arch Diocesan required, circle of Grace curriculum to my students. in, in my, what is that? Catechism and class Safe environment? Yes. The Safe Environment program and the notes to the catechist point out that one in four girls and one in seven boys will be sexually abused. Statistically the odds are like by the age time they're 18. Do you think that's

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah.

Sarah Bartel:

That's it

Mario Sacasa:

I actually just did Our diocese is a safe environment program last week and the stats, that's what they said also. So it's right there.

Sarah Bartel:

when we think about these girls and boys growing up to get married, there's gonna be a, a really big percentage of them who carry these wounds. And then when it comes time, you know, for love making a marriage, this has not been a place of joy. It's been a place of, of pain.

Mario Sacasa:

well, I'm grateful. Grateful to be on the show this time, your podcast.'cause I've had you on my podcast on a couple occasions and had you on last year, the year before. We were talking about the My Delight program when you were getting that started. And that was my most listened to episode of the year. So clearly this was a topic that people wanna hear about and so I was very grateful to come on your show. And, to continue these conversations that we've had. It's awesome.

Sarah Bartel:

I always enjoyed talking with you. So what would you say to a wife who is really trying to find her way to enjoy lovemaking in marriage? but you know, she is never feeling desire and maybe feels really bad about, how she kind of shies away from it. what does she need to hear, first of all?

Mario Sacasa:

Well, first and foremost, I mean, if in the context of what we're speaking about, that we're assuming that this woman is somebody who has had some sexual assault or sexual trauma in her past, And that. What has happened is that there's a pairing and that move to avoid the topic or to not engage and feels guilty about that. Okay. Understandable. the first thing to start with is that move to avoid or to stop is all part of the trauma response. Mm-hmm. And what it's trying to do is it's trying to keep you safe. Okay. our nervous system is wired to do a couple things. One, it's trying to move us towards a place of safety or it's moving us away from a stressful event to get us back into a place of safety. So that sympathetic response that we often hear talked about the flight or flight response that we, that we hear, that's one mechanism that our nervous system implores. So there's a stress that's coming. We wanna be able to have that adrenaline, we wanna be able to have that extra energy to be able to fight that threat off or to be able to get away from it. So it's trying to put us in a place where we feel some control, where we feel an ability to move away from whatever that threatening response is. So that's one way, now another level. that our nervous system incorporates for defensive mechanisms here is that it actually will shut down. So if there is a place where we can't get away from that threatening response, we can't fight it off, we can't run away from it, and we feel stuck in that space, our nervous system will shut down. And we'll, incorporate a dissociative mechanism or other series of mechanisms to be able to prevent us from feeling the full weight of the pain that we're experiencing. So it's a marvel. so I just wanna start there because often when we have these conversations surrounding trauma and the responses that we have to trauma the responses that we feel tend to generate more feelings of shame or guilt surrounding it. I just wanna start by saying your body is doing what it needs to do to take care of itself. And It's a marvel to know how our bodies know how to respond in certain circumstances. And this, this is a silly, silly example. This is a basic example of how our nervous systems can map things out even without our attention. I was on a run one time in a site that I was very comfortable with. This was on the North Shore up in Covington, Louisiana. We did retreats at this place many times. And one morning I went on this run that, this place that had gone on many, many runs before, and there was one day was like these bees were, were, that wasn't bees. It was like biting flies. These ooh, massive horse flies that were like an inch long. Sorry. See that

Sarah Bartel:

sounds like swamp creature insects.

Mario Sacasa:

It is swamp creatures. It is a swamp land, you know, so these things were swarming, they were biting me, you know, and I was trying to go on a nice run and I couldn't. So I turned around. the next time I went back to the retreat center, a couple months later, I won on a run. And I realized that morning one, I wanted a run. I had instinctively gone in a different direction. I didn't even realize that I had. Changed my course, but I had went in a different direction than what I had done the previous time. Why? Because my body had mapped out that that previous path was unsafe. Wow. And instinctively it determined that I shouldn't go in that direction. So in my mind, I wasn't even aware of that. But once I became aware that I had gone in a different direction, I said, I need to remap this so that my brain and my body know that that route is safe again. And so I purposely turned my run around and went back on the path that I had gone on before.

Sarah Bartel:

Oh gosh, now I'm cringing for you.

Mario Sacasa:

They weren't there And that was the gift of it, because they weren't there anymore. Mm-hmm. And now my body had been able to map out that that run was now safe again. Right. It wasn't a threat anymore. I didn't have to avoid it anymore. Wow. Didn't have to fight through it anymore. Now was, did I, did my body do something wrong by going on that previous, on that? Secondary path to avoid the flies? No, it didn't. It was just trying to keep me safe. It had mapped out that going down that one route was unsafe, and so it automatically made a decision that I needed to go down a different route. Okay. So our nervous system is constantly mapping out and surveying environments. And that mapping out is, what influences that mapping out? Well, one, there's genetics, there's predispositions that some of us have towards more anxiety and more depression. But it's also environmental that it's responding to the environment that it's in. And so if it determines that that's a threatening space, it's going to pick up on that. this is a theory called, polyvagal theory, and they use this term neuroception, that it's beyond our. Cognitive perception or perception is that our nervous system, it's constantly mapping out and determining whatever environment that we're in. Do we feel safe or do we not? And if we don't feel safe, then to what level do I not feel safe? And so what type of response is needed? And we go back to those levels of, sense of going back to place of security, place of fight or flight, or a place of shutting down. Now this is all important in when we're talking about the trauma response here,'cause now we bring this into this conversation of love making. the desire may be there. Something's been mapped out because of your experience, and that experience isn't wrong. It's what's happened to you. And so somewhere along the way your body has recognized that this thing is not, safe. And so I need to start working towards, again, mapping what that, remapping it out towards a place of safety. And we'll talk about that in just a second. But the place that I just wanna start is helping people to know that your nervous system is doing what it can to keep you safe, to Help you feel protected. And that's okay.

Sarah Bartel:

I think it makes such a difference to realize, oh. I'm working like instead of I'm broken Yes. Say, oh, everything's working as God designed it to, you know? Yes. To design my nervous system, to protect me. That this is all actually functioning well.

Mario Sacasa:

Yes. Exactly. Which is why I shift away from like, even just the wounds language. It's become so popular in our Catholic kind of context because often I think it focuses on that brokenness element rather than focusing on the resilient element that God has given to us. Our bodies are marvels. They're marvels, and it's incredible how God has created us for this capacity to be able to handle and deal with just about anything that comes our way. Even something as horrendous as sexual assault and violation. Right.

Wow.

Mario Sacasa:

so I'm saying that healing, there is a real healing journey that can happen. And you can call it a wound. Call it a wound. It is a wound. It is a wound. Right. But, but your responses to that event. again, it's just your body trying the best that it can to make sense of the experience that it's gone through. And just like, again, that's why I said it's a silly exercise. I'm not at all equating me running and having singing, biting flies mm-hmm. To somebody experience sexual assault. But I'm just giving that as an analogy for somebody to be able to see that it's going to move in a certain direction. So when you become aware of that movement, now the question becomes, well, what can I do to change that? Wow. And how can we start mapping out a new way so that my nervous system can feel safe again? Particularly in the context of love making.

Sarah Bartel:

Yes. Well that is really intriguing, but I just wanna linger for just a moment before we move forward there to, you know, what can I do to just. Attend with a gaze of compassion and self-compassion because I find that so often as women are sharing with me these horrible, you know, horrible things that have happened to them, and then they're so frustrated with themselves that they're, you know, not into sex, the way they wish they could be. they feel like they, maybe they're a huge disappointment to their husbands or they're just mad at themselves. Like anybody in that same circumstance would also feel that way. And this, to be able to look with compassion at yourself and your story, like, oh, sweet thing. You know, I'm so sorry that that happened. It shouldn't have happened.

Yeah.

Sarah Bartel:

And of course there's gonna be pain and an aversion and. Not I, can you speak a little bit about the power of self-compassion?

Mario Sacasa:

It's powerful. I mean, this is the work of Kristin Neff, who's put so much attention to this And hmm. And of course the work of Brene Brown, you know, whose popularized vulnerability and, and openness and, and kind of moving along with this language of self-compassion as well, that we have to, that's the place that we can start. so here's a simple exercise. If you had a friend who was telling you this story, how would you respond to your friend? What would be the things that you would say? And so why is it that we tell ourselves a different narrative than what we would tell anybody else in this circumstance?

Sarah Bartel:

We're so hard on ourselves, right?

Mario Sacasa:

hard on ourselves. Yes, we absolutely are. and I get it. I understand it well because sexual trauma specifically, it, it evokes a profound feeling of helplessness. Oh, profound feeling of, of a loss of control. And, and the, the feeling of guilt that accompanies that, or the sense that it's my fault, I could have done something more, is. Is an understandable and natural feeling because our minds are just trying to make sense of the experience. And when we can make sense of it, it somehow regains that sense of control over it. the problem with that narrative though, is that coming to the deduction that it's my fault, is that a whole host of other thoughts emerge on the other side of that while I'm broken, I'm trash, I'm worthless. I can't engage in this, I'm a disappointment, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. None of those narratives are coming from the Lord. None. None of that is coming from the Lord. Right? That's not his voice. And God is very clear, to us that. Things, of course happen in life and coming to a place of peace and acceptance about it is a, is a hard first step, but coming to a place if you can just if, if anybody listening to this could at least just come to a place of self-compassion about their experience and meet their experience with a sense of tenderness and love rather than with criticism and harshness, then we have done our job with this podcast. That's nothing we'll talk about, but if that's all that somebody gets outta this episode, then praise Jesus. Then we have done our job, because that's the first step of healing is being able to start turning down that voice of criticism and harshness and shame, and moving towards that voice of compassion. Moving towards that voice of mercy, moving towards that voice of love.

That's moving.

Mario Sacasa:

Moving towards that place of wonder, which is why I reiterate that if we can see that there's resilience that's at work here, if we can see that your body's just doing what it needs to do, what it did, what it needed to do in that moment, and that even the responses that are happening now are just the body's still doing what it thinks it needs to do, that we can work with that, that's something that we can change. Because our nervous system is plastic. That means that it's constantly changing based on the environment that we put it in. So we can change that environment, we can change that narrative. We can create new spaces of safety, we can do gradual exposure, moving towards getting to a place where you can feel confident and comfortable again with your spouse. But that takes time and we'll lay that out. But we just have to start with the place of just saying it's like. Mercy, mercy, mercy, mercy, mercy. Reign over all of it.

Sarah Bartel:

Absolutely. And that understanding too, you mentioned that freeze response that can happen during trauma. And so often women and men who have suffered sexual abuse think, why, why didn't I do anything? Or, you know, why didn't I fight him off? That is the trauma freeze response. Just kind of dissociating you from the experience and

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah. It's very common, right? Oh, incredibly common. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're incredibly common. It don't beat yourself up. Yeah. Don't beat yourself up. And, and so it, that helplessness, that, that response that emerges, what, what needs to happen is, as we've started, the first place to start is compassion, self-compassion, understanding, about what's, what your experience. But then the next step is, well. How do we reclaim a sense of agency? Mm-hmm. How do we take a, a next step towards reclaiming a sense of control, having a little bit of hope, dare we say, even in the midst of this, and, and how do we begin that process? Right. And, and that's what I can jump into if you want me to.

Sarah Bartel:

I really love that you highlight hope and our, in this conversation emphasizing resilience and the possibility for healing. So yes, please do take us down. What is, what's the next step then for reclaiming agency or, a sense of power authority?

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah, because those are, the feelings that we need to reconnect with. Okay? Mm-hmm. Because there's a feeling of being stuck, of being helpless, of being, unable to move. And those are the feelings that often become associated with the trauma response, okay? Mm-hmm. so I'll say this right before we even continue, just so anybody knows, all right, here's my parenthetical kind of statement and my little asterisk, right? If anybody listen to this, and this is your experience, anything that we're offering right now is just at an educational level, right? If this is you and you're connecting with this and you're really struggling, and like, please, please, please go to counseling, alright? Like, what we're doing in this podcast episode is not a replacement for counseling. We're just trying to give you good information so you can apply it to your life, or at least maybe give you some type of map that you can follow. But please go to counseling, like bring this up to a trusted therapist. Work with somebody who can help you navigate this process to be able to get the healing that you need, not just for what's happening in the bedroom, but if any way that that trauma of yours is experienced outside of the bedroom. Okay.

Sarah Bartel:

disclaimer. Yeah.'cause nothing can replace that individual personal attention that you get as you're working with a therapist and share your story and are accompanied that. No podcast or book can replace the care that you receive and that you're worthy of, in that kind of healing relationship. So thank you.

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah. Always, always wanna give that as a caveat, so that we're not overstepping Yes. What we're promising, you know, in, in an episode like this So we talked about first step being compassion, reconnecting with just the idea of resilience. If we can just even connect with the possibility that resilience is there, then we can take the next step. And the next step is starting to pay attention to what specifically are the triggers. Right? Like what is it, is it just even the idea or the initiation of sex that already starts to, to get you nervous? Is it a particular smell? Is it a particular, touch when your husband touches you a certain way? is it a particular position that evokes that feeling of helplessness? Like what is it, that starts to move you in that direction? Okay. And then when you are triggered, what's your natural response? Like? What do you do? do you pull away? Do you start to shut down? Are you making excuses? Are you getting to some avoidant tendencies? are you freezing in your body? like what's happening? Start paying attention is there hyper arousal from a fear response? is that starting to take over? Just being overly stimulated? Is it becoming too much? Are you starting to feel numb? Start just being, again, curious is the word. If we started with self-compassion, the next word that we want to use is start being curious about how your body responds in these moments. Okay? Mm-hmm. What's the triggers? And then how does your body respond or reiterate? We wanna ask these questions, not from a place of shame, not from a place of harshness or criticism, which is often how we wanna do it, but give space for curiosity to be the name of the game. Just be curious. How can I just view my response to this from a judgment free zone, like this is just how I'm responding. Right. Once you can start paying attention to that, then we can move on to ways that you can start remapping it and moving it in the next direction. Because the reason that, walking away from that guilt or that harshness is important, is that that harshness is always going to serve as a barrier from you being able to move on. Because that critical voice is just, it's hard. It's harsh, and it's like having a coach. would you rather excel under a coach who's compassionate and supportive and cheering you on, or the guy who's just yelling at you and telling you you're making mistakes all along the way? that same type of narrative we want to be pay attention to within ourselves and as much as we possibly can. Being able to shift towards a voice that is loving and tender, that just sees reality as it is that acknowledges that this happened and acknowledges that this is the response that happens, and being able to just see that as it is so that we can then move on to something else. Does that make sense, Sarah?

Sarah Bartel:

So what would you say would be the next step then in, in growing once we have that just open curiosity scene? Okay, so how do I respond without judgment, without shame? Just, okay, well, oh, and then the noticing and the awareness is so, so powerful. Then where do we go from there?

Mario Sacasa:

So then you start paying attention. Okay. So if there's an avoidant response that start happening, you start making kinda excuses for, for not being in the mood or mm-hmm. Or maybe you're starting, but then you freeze and you stop. or there's a certain smell that just kinda reactivates a memory and brings back something that you don't wanna be thinking about, in the context of, of love making with your husband Any, any one of those circumstances. Okay. If we can work towards, like I said, meeting it with curiosity and compassion, great. Then the next step is, well, how do we. What do we do in that moment? Mm-hmm. This is where practicing some type of grounding technique or having something on your holster to be able to utilize in that moment is going to be very helpful. So some type of grounding technique, and this can be a, a few options here, and I'm gonna give our, our listeners for today, right? The first one is just simple breathing. Okay? If you can control your breathing, what, what often happens when we feel fear is that our breathing gets really shallow. and the reason that it gets shallow again is because it's, it's, it's cultivating energy that we're going to need before we go and do the thing that we're supposed to do, defend ourselves. It's a defensive response. this is why like athletes before they like sprinters, before they do something intense. Like you, they do almost like hyper prevental. It's like, like you get so pumped up, you know, for like doing the activities because it's starting to get your heart rate going again. In the right context, you need that energy. but in the wrong context, we don't need that much energy. so what do we do to regulate?

Sarah Bartel:

we're, so really what's happening sort of at a primal level is we're getting ready to run away or, you know, defend ourselves or attack or whatnot. Right.

Mario Sacasa:

exactly. And again, it's happening as we've talked about reflexively, because the nervous system has mapped out that this thing that we're about to do is not safe. Mm-hmm. and so it's operating from that disposition that it's not safe. And so here's the tools that the nervous system knows how to utilize when we don't feel safe. Right. so it's doing it, it's doing what it's trained to do. Okay. Gotcha. but recognizing that we have a soul, we're not just our body, we don't just look into our body. We do have a soul that's in charge here also. And so we can put our, we can put ourselves back in charge by just recognizing that we're doing that and that we can start controlling our breathing. So simple deep breaths where it can be anything. Like, just, just, you know, taking deep breath, you know, counting to four, some box breathing here, you know. 2, 3, 4, you hold it, 2, 3, 4, and then you exhale 1, 2, 3, 4. Right? You can do some simple box breathing if that feels too rigid. Just even maybe just paying attention to your exhale, right? Your heart rate increases when you inhale, and then it decreases when you exhale. So if you can slow your exhale in that moment, you're going to decrease the heart rate, you're gonna decrease that, that, hyper arousal, right? Mm-hmm. So just simple breathing techniques. Okay? And we can do this all within a Catholic context. If you want me to get into how I view mindfulness from a Catholic perspective, we can get into that. But we're just speaking about breathing right now. We're not getting into anything eastern. Just, just talking about, we're just talking about the breath people. Okay. So this is like just working fully in line biology with our Catholic fully in line. Yes, exactly.

Sarah Bartel:

Yes. Nothing wrong with using our breathing and our awareness to be grounded in the moment.

Mario Sacasa:

Okay. And recognize that it's okay. So the breathing is, is really important. Why? Why is breathing matter? Well, for a couple reasons. One, we start feeling that helplessness, okay? That's what's emerging. we're getting into a fight or flight response. We're getting into an avoidant response. By just focus on your breath. You're beginning to take that first step. I have some control right now. Wow. Okay. I have control, again. I have agency again. I can control my breathing. I can focus on my breath. I can focus on exhaling deeply and inhaling deeply, And exhaling slowly. That is, both settling your nervous system, but it's also putting you back into place where you're working against that feeling of helplessness. You're reclaiming a sense of agency again. Right.

Sarah Bartel:

This is good. And I'm just gonna maybe flesh out an example. Please, please do. Yeah. So for the context of what we're talking about here, maybe a wife or a husband gets really nervous when, you know, they see their spouse, you know, suggesting love making, maybe it's making sex jokes, or maybe it's putting a hand on the waist, or however this might look in your home. But let's just say for the purpose of this example, it's like when he touches your shoulder in a certain way and says, Hey, wanna go to bed early tonight? Or something like that. And you're like, oh, I know what this is about.

Yeah.

Sarah Bartel:

then you start to feel your breathing, get, you know, shall you, you have the awareness, you, you notice, oh, okay. One thing that happens when. Is, I think of 10 things I need to do right now and I wanna go avoid, I feel that my breathing's getting faster to just pause, right. And then do box breathing where you trace a, a square in the air, you know, count four seconds across the top of the square to, breathe in, hold the breath for four seconds down one side of the square, exhale, you know, the, the same number of seconds for the bottom mm-hmm. Of the square. And then hold the exhale for the remainder of the square. So just to do a breathing exercise. And this helps you feel more in control because maybe when you were a little girl and someone held your arm or touch your shoulder, then a really bad thing happened afterwards. But in this loving context of your marriage, you know you're safe. You can recognize that, and you're gonna decide, I'm gonna be in control now. I wasn't in control then, but I'm gonna at least control my breathing and pause a moment.

Mario Sacasa:

That's it. You got it. And that phrasing is really important because. You're starting to remap your nervous system to see that, hey, whenever somebody touches you in a suggestive way on your shoulder, releasing this context with your husband, touching you in a way that's an invitation for sex is not a threat. And so what we're trying to do is we're starting to break the globalization that has happened, the globalizing rather of that. Experience into all sexual experiences. and so you're trying to create some space, at least again, the words possibility, just at least the possibility for one specific act. Love making with your husband to be separated and differentiated from the trauma that happened.

Sarah Bartel:

Wow. Wow. It's funny, I also have a silly example, which has nothing to do with love making, but when my husband and I sit down to look at our calendar for the week ahead, that's when I start to feel the breathing coming. And I have 10 other things I need to go wash those dishes.

Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Bartel:

And we did this, we're, we're recording here on a Monday, so Nathan and I did this yesterday, and I caught myself. I made myself some tea and I went and sat down. and I didn't think to do some breathing, but, you know, it didn't go as bad as I thought it was gonna be.

We

Sarah Bartel:

looked at our calendar and got all the things on, mapped out

On

Sarah Bartel:

the days. And it must be that, you know, in the past I felt flooded or overwhelmed by, Looking at all the things to do in the week ahead. And that's why at some, what did you call that level that, you know, just not with a conscious mind, but Yeah.

Mario Sacasa:

Neuroception,

Sarah Bartel:

neuroception was like, this is not a safe activity. Exactly.

Mario Sacasa:

I'm getting overwhelmed right now. Yeah. I'm being flooded right now, which is, you know, when talking about procrastination, for example, procrastination often is a fear response. It's not a lazy response. it's not because you're slothful often you procrastinate because you're avoiding the tasks that you need to do that, you know, is going to be more challenging than the, so you're doing the lesser things rather than focusing on the thing that needs to happen.

Wow.

Mario Sacasa:

So breathing is one option in terms of grounding. Another one is drinking, water. We're not drinking alcohol

Sarah Bartel:

Okay, great. Yeah, maybe that's why I got myself the tea in that.

Mario Sacasa:

So tea. So sit down to that meeting. Yep. So what does tea do? Okay. So even from like a biological perspective, a couple things. One, if you have a hot tea, you're putting warmth back in your peripheral, in your fingers. So when we're experiencing kind of nervousness, Your Sarah. Right? So yeah, our body conserves energy because it's getting to flight or flight, which means it's pulling All that blood flow right back into our core, which is why our hands get cold or get clammy sometimes when we get nervous. it's all part of that response. So just holding a cup of tea, brings warmth back into your periphery, which is alerting your body that it's safe, it's okay.

Sarah Bartel:

amazing. And that's why tea's so cozy and reassuring. Yes.

Mario Sacasa:

Yes, that's why putting socks on also is really cozy and assuring for the same reason. Because it's trying to increase blood flow back into the peripheral, you know, Digits of our body.

Mm-hmm.

Mario Sacasa:

but then drinking also water or tea again, not alcohol, we're gonna be clear, we're right to calm us down. Is is, just the, the act of drinking, the act of swallowing stimulates the vagus nerve, which stimulates some, self-soothing techniques as well. So there, there's a lot that's happening there. Okay. You have the triggering response. Here's some grounding techniques that you can utilize to help you in that. Why are we using these ground techniques? Because it's reminding you that you're in a place of safety. Reminding you that that, okay, that thing might have been something, but now I'm giving an opportunity, a possibility that we're gonna remap this, we're gonna look at this with a new lens. I'm gonna try to start teaching myself and teaching my body that this is safe again. And the way that starts is by me being in control, feeling help. I'm, I'm not feeling helpless in this, and I'm moving towards something. That could be good. All right. So a couple other just grounding techniques. Let's try prayer. Of course. so saying prayer, something simple. I'm, I'm a big fan of the Jesus Prayer, and I tend to incorporate that a lot in my life. So, Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy sent me just something to, to reconnect with the Lord. some self-soothing statements. I'm present. I'm now. Like paying attention to where we're at right now. Simple things like even opening your eyes and just absorbing the moment. context for that, I would say would be like the example that you gave was if somebody, you know, your husband has, has touched you in a certain way, I would say like, maybe you're in the act or, or you're moving towards it and all of a sudden some memories start to reemerge. Just simply opening your eyes, taking a deep breath, grounding yourself in the experience that you're in right now, letting the new smells, if you have a special candle or something that kind of, you can map out to putting you in the mood type of thing. Like, that's okay. Those are all good things. Certain lotions or smells that are creating new pathways, new opportunities, allowing that to, to be, part of the experience and not just rushing over it. Letting new pathways emerge, new experiences emerge, and so that even if those old thoughts or those old memories start to flood in, in a moment, just simply opening yourself, opening your eyes. In reminding yourself that you're here, you're in the present, you're a new experience, giving space for, again, new pathways to, to emerge.

Sarah Bartel:

that's so beautiful. I love that you mentioned prayer and then soothing statements. And in my course, my delight, I do try to help women, understand that, you know, you can pray before, during, and after her love making. Yep. Yep. And also to hang on to, you know, to create a positive script for yourself. Like, I'm learning to enjoy love making for just, you know, a generic use. But in something like this situation where you have a history of past sexual abuse, maybe something like that is a prayer and a positive, positive statement all at once could really resonate. Like, Lord, help me remember I'm safe in my husband's arms. Or, help me remember I'm safe with his touch. Or something like that. Yes.

Mario Sacasa:

Help me to remember that my body is a gift for him.

Mm.

Mario Sacasa:

And that I'm a gift for him. Help me to know that as you said, I feel safe and that this experience is a gift that you've given to us. Yeah. All we're doing again, is just introducing that prayers like that. Reiterate, we're, we're introducing hope in this moment. we're exercising their virtue in these moments. Just to give possibility for newness to emerge.

Sarah Bartel:

And I love these, you know, opening your eyes and remapping, you know, maybe lighting a candle or I sometimes, you know, I'll recommend like using essential oils in One woman in one of my courses had created a special essential oil blend just to spritz the bedroom with, for her and her husband. And, you know, and that's gonna create a new association and help, you know, okay, this is now Absolutely this is us and this is a beautiful thing we're doing.

Mario Sacasa:

smell and memory are really linked. they're really tied smell is deeply ingrained in our brains. Wow. so much so that, like hallucinations, you talk about visual hallucinations or auditory hallucinations for people with schizophrenia, but when you have. olfactory hallucinations. That's a real problem, right? Because that's deeply ingrained in our brains. smells can bring us right back. I mean, you could smell somebody's perfume and you're thinking about your grammar school teacher in a heartbeat. we've all experienced that. You go right back into a room and you smell something, you're like, how did I become five again? Like, what just happened? You know? Yes. And so this is why like even something like this is important because if we can create new smells mm-hmm. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to create new pathways, new mapping, new opportunities, newness, That can hopefully continue to move us in the direction that you wanna move it.

Sarah Bartel:

I remember, I remember when I was a guest on your podcast and we were discussing porn that this, you gave the great tip for same men and women who have used porn in the past to reconnect, to connect in the moment. With your spouse porn cannot replicate, smell. Right. Can you just mention that again?

Mario Sacasa:

No, of course it can. because there's no way to generate that.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Mario Sacasa:

so no porn can't replicate, smell. So

Sarah Bartel:

really breathing in the scent of your spouse in that moment. Because we're all so unique, right? We each have our very own blend of pheromones and scent. And so to know the smell of your own husband, your own wife, is really powerful to root you in the moment.

Mario Sacasa:

It's really powerful. So I think another piece to this for the women who are listening is like, have a conversation with your husband. Before this, so you're not just all of a sudden opening your eyes and freaking'em out or taking deep breaths in the middle of some activity. He's like, what are you doing? You know, like, maybe,

Sarah Bartel:

maybe they'll get self-conscious about how they smell.

Mario Sacasa:

Exactly. I thought I took a shower before, you know? Right. So, but like, but that's a good tip. Yeah. having some conversation, with them. I think it's important because as you are gaining mastery or understanding what's going on within your own experience and taking steps with some of these grounding techniques that we've been speaking about, it's important for him to know what the journey has been for you.

Mm-hmm.

Mario Sacasa:

he know about the experiences of your past? is that something that you have shared with him? Do you feel comfortable sharing that with him? To what detail do you feel comfortable sharing with him? What has happened to you? All questions that need to be fleshed out for the individual.

Mm-hmm.

Mario Sacasa:

But at least helping him to know where it's come from so that you can receive his empathy and his compassion. In this and that he can be part of this healing journey with you.

Mm-hmm.

Mario Sacasa:

the goal that the, the ideal I think for most couples is getting to a place of attunement. Attunement where we feel like we understand each other and even when there's a little bit of a pause or something, we can kind of understand and pause and we can say, okay, like, what's going on? or even know what the response is to that action that just happened. Oh my gosh. Being able to have that level of attune of one another. I know that's like, that takes a while for us to get to that, but that would be the goal, and even in this circumstance where even just beginning to introduce that, where it's like you can tell him like, this is. What I may experience in this moment, this is what I may do to respond to it. So just know that, please. Mm-hmm. That if it's not about anything you're doing or doing wrong, but this is just my way of being able to work through this so that I can be the most open and vulnerable with you

Sarah Bartel:

Oh my gosh. That word attunement. I feel like we could maybe do a whole podcast stuff, so just on Aune, it's so important and powerful. But yeah, to let him in and to let him know that, you know, he can be part of your healing journey. I can just imagine that a husband could feel so helpless, you know, not knowing what do I do? My wife had this horrible experience in the past, you know, we're married, we want to create, you know, beautiful love life together. But to let him in that if he can just be patient, attend, you know, understand that she's working on grounding, she's working on being in the present, you know, that can help him feel more empowered maybe. Is there anything else do you think that could help the husband?

Mario Sacasa:

yeah, so also that means then as far as like how far we can go in any given night. All right. Yeah. And part of the problem here is that maybe added the guilt or the shame. Women might feel that it's their duty as their wives to just suck it up and. Right. And give them what they want, you know, do, which

Sarah Bartel:

is wrong ladies. This is not the church's teaching. I'm just gonna not waste any opportunity to reiterate that obligation. Sex is not the church teaching.

Mario Sacasa:

You must always, and you're the moral, you're the moral theologian. So you got the ex, you got the credentials to be able to back that statement

Sarah Bartel:

You have to be able to give a free yes or no without compulsion, without pressure. And a no is acceptable as well that, you need to be able to say no, that is so important.

Mario Sacasa:

Absolutely. So, but even aside from that, from the obligation side, I'm speaking about more from like psychotherapy from a psychologist counseling side, which is just that you may feel, you feel that guilt that we talked about at the beginning. And so how do I deal with the guilt? Reflexively, I just stuff it and push through it. Right. Even that gesture to just push through it is perpetuating that trauma response. It's perpetuating that, that, that feeling of like, I'm helpless in this. I don't have control over this. I just have to acquiesce to this. Oh. And so we, we just wanna be sensitive to that. Okay. Which means then like, having honest conversations your husband's about like, we're, we're moving as we're moving towards a place of health. As I'm moving towards a place of feeling safe enough with you. That means I need to have the freedom to be able to say no in certain and feel safe saying no, that

Sarah Bartel:

Grumpiness or silence or pouting or, you know, yes. To be accepted

Mario Sacasa:

Yes.

Sarah Bartel:

being able to set a limit or boundary.

Mario Sacasa:

Yes, that's right. I'm trying to reiterate to him that I'm trying to move to a place where I can feel more freedom, that I can start initiating, that I can feel comfortable, that I can be more playful, in this space as well.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah, that's so great. I just to, to mention to the wives, I just wanna underscore that, that if you can express to him, you share that goal in the future of being able to really enjoy love making, to be able to be playful and creative and fun and free, that is what you want. It is gonna be a process to get there, and that process is gonna require a lot of patience and, gentleness and care then that can help him feel like you're not just pushing him away all the time, you are working towards greater union. And that's exactly right.

Mario Sacasa:

so that he's aware of that. Okay. And so that means, again, as we're talking about, the key is starting to reclaim a sense of agency over this, right? This is where something like the My Delight program would be of great help where you start learning about your own body's response, with regards to pleasure and what that means, and educating yourself and knowing then, well, how does my body actually operate? Like, what works, what doesn't work? Knowing these things. So now we're firmly squarely in a place of having a sense of agency and being able to make this a donative gift, a generative gift that I can give to my husband, rather than just something that I'm supposed to withdraw from. We get to that space. Now we're talking about, alright, we've, we're remapping things. We're allowing the nervous system to settle, or acknowledging and recognizing that certainly things have happened in the past, but we can contextualize it and say that those are things that happen. Now we have new opportunities and newness can emerge. That's the growth. that's what we're trying to do. Right? so that means. As you said, putting yourself in a position where you have control, where you can say, no, but that might even mean, I said that metaphorically, but even physically, if there is certain positions that are equated with the helpless feeling, then maybe that's not where we need to start. Okay? Mm-hmm. moving towards places where you say, how would I feel comfortable and not feel helpless at the same time? Alright. That's a great question to maybe ask yourself.

Sarah Bartel:

It's a great question.

Mario Sacasa:

so thinking about those things, incorporating that, where can I start? Where can I feel some control? Where can I work against that feeling of helplessness? Where can I feel like I can move towards something new? What invites me towards something new? Smells, sights, the whole thing, time, all of that, and. Giving yourself permission and space to just take it one step at a time as you're moving towards, a new experience of love making with your husband.

Sarah Bartel:

Wow. So is that then just how the Jo journey continues to the rest? That's the journey. That's it.

Mario Sacasa:

Repeatedly. Yeah. Keep going. because it takes time for the nervous system to be remapped Right. This is another version of kind of exposure therapy in the sense that you're just Looking at the thing that creates the most amount of fear and you're taking gradual steps to work against that movement. you take those gradual steps. You're reprogramming the nervous system to feel control again, to feel agency again, to feel safe again in this experience. And that's not gonna happen one time. It's gonna be. A process that's gonna have some starts and stops. It's gonna have some fits and spurts. It's gonna be ups and downs. There's gonna be some weeks you're gonna be like, yeah, this is great. Awesome. And then the next week you're gonna be like, ah, I don't know what's going on. And you're gonna feel guilty. Don't feel guilty about that. Just recognize it's all part of the process. As you're moving in the direction that you need to move in. And I tell this to all my clients, I tell this to all my clients. Listen, the, the work of therapy often looks like the stock market where it's like day to day. That's exactly, yeah. From day to day it's up and down, up and down, up and down. But you take, you draw an aggregate line between any five year period in our, in our economy's history. And it's always trending in one direction.

Sarah Bartel:

Always an overall up upward trend. That's right. That's exactly right. Exactly. Even with all the zigzag up and downs. Yeah. So I'm just gonna go back to that example of the woman who, you know, wa flinches or a voids when she feels her husband touch her arm and say, Hey, wanna go to bed early tonight? Mm-hmm. So she uses her grounding, breathing. Maybe she has a helpful thought, that's a prayer like, Lord, help me know I'm safe in my husband's arms. Yeah. And so maybe gradually over time she can. Tolerate that and even welcome it, learn to welcome it more and more. But then maybe if he slides his hand somewhere else, you know her back, or small of her back or what have you, she'll need to kind of repeat that.

Right.

Sarah Bartel:

The grounding, the prayer, and all along the steps of the, initial touches and. all through foreplay and intercourse too.

Yep.

Sarah Bartel:

and there might be stops along those points and it might not progress to a full lovemaking session that day or that night,

Mario Sacasa:

that particular day.

Sarah Bartel:

And she's had a conversation with her husband about how she is really reclaiming, her

Mario Sacasa:

Yep.

Sarah Bartel:

Ability to feel in control. That, that's really important since control was taken from her in the past. Sexual abuse, that he's understanding and attuned and it's giving her the space and support and maybe saying things like, what can I do to help you? Or Would you like to just, you know, snuggle in my arms? Or do you just want space? Just that understanding can be really helpful for her. So she feels free and safe with him.

Mario Sacasa:

yes, exactly. Exactly. so you giving space for that, what that's doing then is. so that woman, let's go back to that, right? she feels that, she says the grounding technique. she does that. The next step also is maybe even give room for even not just feeling neutral about the touching on the shoulder or the touching on the hip, but maybe give space for feeling delight in that. It's like, mm-hmm. Oh, like, let me just even reconnect with a feeling of positivity in this space. It's like, that actually felt really good. I can connect to that actually made me feel loved. and wanting to move in that direction, connecting with those feelings as well. Bringing those thingss back up. I, I think is, is part of this.

Sarah Bartel:

Oh, that's so great. And just to notice, you know, maybe neutral at first. This is a touch instead of the body, you know, mind body feeling like this is bad touch.

Mario Sacasa:

This is bad touch.

Sarah Bartel:

Right. Like this is just touch full stop to then. This is a nice touch. I feel the warmth of his, his touch. And this is my husband who I love and Yes, exactly.

Mario Sacasa:

this to him and I wanna share in this with them,

Sarah Bartel:

know? Yeah. Right. And it's for her as well. Like, God made us able to receive touch and for that to feel nice. Yes. God gave me this body to Yes. Enjoy touch. So that's really, I'm glad you mentioned delight and looking for, is there a pleasure in here? Is there something pleasant about this experience?

Mario Sacasa:

And so just reconnecting with that again, you know, and bringing these things to reflection, bringing these things to prayer. Just saying, all right, Lord, like. Where are you in this? can continue to please to be with me in this journey of healing as I'm moving in the direction that you want me to move in. the Lord is with us every step of the way. The Lord understands what's happened. The Lord understands where we want to go. The Lord has created us in a way. We can change, we can grow, we can heal, we can move. And he wants to be present with us every step along the way. and it's really, a gift to invite him on that journey with us.

Sarah Bartel:

It is a gift. I just wanna, as we wrap up, think again about the Lord's voice versus the harsh voice.

Yes.

Sarah Bartel:

You know, who, which the accuser always has that harsh shaming gring voice, but the Lord is always gentle, encouraging patient. And it makes, as we talk about steps, I can't help but thinking about a mom and a dad watching their little one, take their first You know, learn to stand up and then learn to take a few steps and walk. That process takes so much, you know, it's such a process, right? And a good mom or dad is just right there connected with the child, you know, encouraging them, understanding they're gonna fall in their little diaper bottom lots and lots of times before they can stand up. Right.

Mario Sacasa:

They can handle it. their bones are mostly cartilage anyways. it's all part of the process.

Sarah Bartel:

And which of us would scold or shame a little baby, you know, for not learning to walk faster, right? Yeah. That's just not a loving parent thing to do, not a loving father or mother thing to do. And God is always like that with us. He is always so loving and encouraging and to just be able to tune in that the process of healing, it's gonna take the time that it takes. There's no. Deadline or goal?

Mario Sacasa:

question, right. So this is gonna be thinking on something. I have a question that I wanna ask you then. All right. So I know we're wrapping up here, but, along this process, and again, I'm thinking about husbands who, maybe we're having a hard time here with like, maybe arousal has gotten too, too far into it, and it's like we're expecting something. Mm-hmm. Like, obviously we always are encouraging, and the, the church teaches that the, the act must always be unitive and open to life. Right? And so we're not encouraging any sort of like self-stimulation to alleviate oneself. But if in the context here that this couple is trying and they're moving and maybe there is climax that happens on the husband's side, prematurely, or he's trying to be patient loving, but can't quite like what advice like. I know how I would say this, but I guess from a, from your perspective, like what advice would be given to, in that situation and recognizing that, that there's a messiness that can be involved in this, right?

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. What would you say? Oh, great question. Absolutely. So, and I think I'm gonna answer the question you didn't ask first, and then I'm gonna answer this question.

Mario Sacasa:

Sounds great.

Sarah Bartel:

if the couple is moving toward, their intention is to try to make love, which is a, complete act of intercourse for the husband's climax is inside his wife's vagina. That needs to be an essential element To a love making session for all the genital stimulation, all that to be Moral elicit. The, the foreplay and the stimulation is meant to. Be a part of the lovemaking session that includes that. Right. But, if along the way, you know, maybe they've started with the foreplay and the genital stimulation, and at any point along the way the wife starts to feel anxious, or the husband, if he's the one with the sexual trauma, or maybe they're, you know, it could be other factors too, which we haven't discussed on this podcast, but maybe all of a sudden they're like, you know, at first this seemed like a good idea, but actually we weren't thinking clearly when we began this, about our intention. To avoid pregnancy, you know, now we remember we actually really do need, avoid pregnancy. Right. You can stop at any point along the way if your intention began as we're gonna make love all the way. Mm-hmm. But then you, you know, anxiety comes up, pain. Maybe the wife isn't experiencing or the husband experiencing pain with the stimulation or the beginning, you know, intercourse partway through. You are not forced to go through and complete the act. in order to make it okay. You know, well we, we went this far, so now we're invested or whatever. And you know, we have, in order to avoid sin, we, we have to just finish up. No, no, no, no. That I just want every wife to know. She is free to say, actually, I just. No, this isn't, I can't do this tonight.

Right.

Sarah Bartel:

Or today or whenever. And to stop at that point. Right. And this happens in, you know, we get interrupted, maybe the fire alarm went off, maybe a kid bust or whatnot. Right. So I wanted to answer that question when that, I'm not sure if you asked, but, I think it's important, right? Because,'cause maybe the wife's past sexual abuse, the, the trauma is like, okay, I thought, you know, I'm making progress on my healing and I'm doing my breathing and I'm into the mm-hmm. You know, the foreplay and the mutual genital stimulation, but then actually the anxiety floods and she's like, no, I, I. It's too soon, or I'm not ready, or just, I can't right now.

Right.

Sarah Bartel:

free to stop now. If along the way the husband had an involuntary, premature ejaculation. Mm-hmm. You know, before they got to intercourse, if it wasn't the intention to masturbate for that, it just, it was like an involuntary thing. There's no moral culpability there.

Mario Sacasa:

Okay,

Sarah Bartel:

Was that the question you were asking?

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah, it was, because I'm just, I'm giving space to acknowledge that, like, I, I guess I'm thinking about husbands in, in a situation where like, we're moving along and again, knowing the differences between arousal's cycles for men and women and, and the realities of orgasm and ejaculation from a husband's perspective. Yeah, no culpability. There is a point of like where it, you know, we get far enough along that it's like something needs to happen here. completion needs to happen, and so like if it happens unintentionally or involuntarily, then I'm just trying to give some space for like. Accidents, I guess.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah, that's, and the church understands that accidents happen, but say we had this situation where they were really far along in the foreplay and then, you know, the, there's an interruption and the interruption might be from anxiety becoming overwhelming and he's like, oh my gosh, I'm really far along. He can't masturbate completion. That's not morally allowed. So he's gotta go take a cold shower or go, you know, pull on the clothes and go do some yard work or something to dispel that energy. All the classic chastity, you know, techniques of sublimation, destruction. Yep.

All that.

Sarah Bartel:

Redirecting that energy somewhere else with compassion. Yes, it can be frustrating, but we all, you know, all married couples know what it's like to have an interruption and then have to graciously and maturely learn how to deal with, things not going according to the initial plan, That's so good to draw that out because this is real life.

Mario Sacasa:

real life. Yep. And just wanna make sure that's clear for, for, for couples listening to this Yeah. So that they can feel and know kind of what's, again, what's permissible, what's not, but as they're moving in this direction mm-hmm. Can, the goal is getting to the place of, of health and healing and, and freedom. We just giving space for there to be. Steps, you know, and, right. What to do in the intermediary, should these things. Yeah.

Sarah Bartel:

And then I am sure from your perspective with psychology, that you could see how retraumatizing that would be for the wife if the husband were really far along. He is like, well, I just gotta go now. You know, when she said, no, I can't. That just, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Very good. Well, thank you so much, Mario. I'm so grateful for you sharing this, really great overview of, you know, how it is possible to remap, our nervous system and the trauma, you know, write over, rewrite over the, the trauma to, reclaim sex and love making as something that can be joyful and good and absolutely emphasis on resilience.

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah. And I just, want to encourage people listening that please. Go to the counseling process. those memories need to be processed. You need to be able to come to a place of acceptance about what's happened in our lives. Something we all have to do, whether we've been traumatized or not. Life doesn't ever go as smoothly as we want it to. And so finding acceptance, coming to peace, coming to a place of healing about that is going to help you move forward in whatever sense as well.

Sarah Bartel:

Are there notes or guidance you would give as far as, you know, certain modalities of counseling? I'm not sure if that's the right word, but I know there's like, you know, different, are they schools of thought? Can you speak to that just a bit?

Mario Sacasa:

So whatever works. I mean, certainly IFS is there, I'm not an IFS guy. I don't think that way, but I know a lot of therapists who are, very skilled in that. EMDR is another trauma-based, intervention as well. But it's really just finding somebody who you feel comfortable being able to share your story with is what matters more than the modality.

Sarah Bartel:

what about Catholic versus a not Catholic counselor?

Mario Sacasa:

Yeah. Again, I would prefer finding somebody who has strong integration in both between Catholicism and in the science as well. But if you're not able to find somebody who has that integration in your area, then at least finding somebody who is knowledgeable and who is attentive to you. Most even secular therapists are not there promoting an agenda Yes, there are some who are for sure. but the majority are just ready to be attentive and receptive and wanna help you navigate through the trauma that you've experienced. and so finding somebody who's trauma informed, finding people who know how to deal with these memories, can walk you through it. Like I said, somebody who maybe has EMD or some other type of trauma processing background. Those things are what's gonna help. But it's all about finding the right person, finding the person who you trust, finding the person who you feel you can be vulnerable with or you can open up with. And if you need somebody to be Catholic or Christian, at least you have that foundation. then find somebody who can be that safe place for you. so just again, wanna encourage people to get the right help.

Sarah Bartel:

Wonderful. Thank you so much. I've been talking with Dr. Mario Sacasa, the host of the Always Hope podcast. thanks again Dr. Mario for being willing to speak about this today.

Mario Sacasa:

Thanks Sarah for having me on. It was great.