My Delight with Sarah Bartel

Sex and the Single (or Dating) Catholic Woman with Maria Spears Mumaugh

• Nathan Bartel

Share episode

What challenges do single Catholic women face as they strive to live chastely while waiting to be married? How far is it okay to go when you are dating? How does a single woman develop of positive view of sex while not actually having sex? Maria Spears Mumaugh, a musician and mindset coach, is the co-founder of The Intentional Single, which helps single Catholic women thrive in the years of dating and single life as they prepare for marriage. She shares the struggles single women face regarding porn use, feeling "touch-starved" (and what to do about it), navigating appropriate boundaries while dating, and navigating purity culture's burden of anxiety and shame around sexuality.

They chat about fears dating women have about their boyfriends' (or future husband's) porn use, and how to address this likely possibility if marriage is in view.

Join in this fun conversation about thriving as a whole woman and laying a great foundation for your married sex life WHILE being single and dating.

The Intentional Single

Maria Spears Mumaugh's book The Mirror 


MORE RESOURCES

Free Enhancing Marital Intimacy Guide for Catholic Women: 9 Skills for Body, Mind, and Spirit (for married and engaged women)

Do you want to know what is allowed for Catholics in the bedroom? The "What's Allowed List" answers 20+ questions about what is licit and illicit. ($10)

Model-free lingerie! Get 10% off with my affiliate link for Mentionables.


Sarah Bartel:

I'm so excited to have a special guest today to talk about sex and the Catholic single joining me. I have Maria Spears Mumaugh, who is a life strategist and mindset coach for women, a speaker, a musician, a podcaster, and an author. She's the co-founder of the intentional single, a company and ministry that seeks to equip women in developing confidence, Leveling up the relationships with men and thriving from the inside out in their single and dating years and Maria, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for letting

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

me, yeah, for being here. I'm so excited to be able to, continue a beautiful conversation. So, well,

Sarah Bartel:

can you tell us a little bit about what you do through the intentional single along with, Megan, the other coach that you work with

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Yeah, so a little backdrop. So I was single for a very long time. Way longer than what I ever imagined I would be. And I, in 2016, no, 2016 I guess it was, myself and two of my best friends, we were living together in Nashville. We'd been living together for several years, previously. And, You know, we had these conversations that, you know, we're single, we desire to be wives and moms, but that's not happening right now, and so how can we serve in the here and now? What does the Lord want from us in this season? And we went on to start a band and women's ministry called His Own.

Sarah Bartel:

Aww.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

through that, I'm really helping to remind women of their dignity, their worth, their feminine genius, and through that encounter, I encountered single and dating women from all over the world. You know, I started noticing this trend for single and dating women that it didn't matter what country they were in, that ache was the same. The pain points were the same. fast forward, ended up getting introduced into the coaching world, and I actually had, a dream one night, called a vision, where I was kind of half awake, half asleep, and the Lord showed me this, community of women from all over the world and there was courses and there was community and there was coaching and, and there was just this beautiful sisterhood I woke up, I was in this space where I'm writing down as the Lord's kind of downloading this to me I put the journal down, went back to sleep and the next morning, like, did that happen? Wow. And I picked up my journal and I had all these notes and I was like, okay, Lord, what do I do with this? And sat on it for quite a while, prayed on it, a lot more involved there, but long story short, what ended up transpiring is I was, around, I guess it's probably in 2020. I was in the coaching world, but I wasn't coaching specifically, just single and dating It's kind of everybody, and loved it, but that vision that the Lord had given was still kind of hanging over there. What's that supposed to look like? And you know, everything shut down. The world went crazy, right? Bernadette. It's funny. And, I was asked to give some talks online for some different singles events and I ended up writing, or giving a talk that was basically, are you, you know, are you waiting ready or are you living? I don't know. Which ended up turning into a, what I thought was going to be a book that actually ended up being our first course, that has since been called Thriving in a Space Between, with the intentional single. And so ended up joining forces with Megan, who is another coach, also had a big, big heart for single, and dating women. the Lord has just taken us on this journey. Crazy journey with starting what is called the intentional single where we have different programs available. Then we have a membership after they've been through a six month container going through some of the programs and we have a beautiful sisterhood in there. We have coaching, we have happy hours, we have these small group cohorts, so they really, really foster sisterhood. And it's just been a beautiful, completely unexpected, body of work that the Lord has invited us into.

Sarah Bartel:

Oh, that's so wonderful. And it's theintentionalsingle.com. Is that where women can find this access, this sisterhood, and find the work? Wonderful. So then tell me a little bit about The Mirror. is this related to this more general coaching for a wider audience?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

So The Mirror book, so that was a book that I co-authored with another coach friend of mine. it was an idea that he had had that it's kind of this idea of, what we see In the mirror, right, when we look in the mirror, that's how we view the world through that lens. It's really identity, you know, and we talk actually a lot about that in The Attentional Single because our identity is really your starting space, you know. and so we go through a lot of different exercises in the book. And it's really, how do you thrive as a whole person, physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally? What's the reason? What's the science? What's the hormone? You know, because there's so many different parts to being human. And I think so often, we are shooting ourselves in the foot, rather than thriving, and we don't even realize it. And so it's with a lot of very practical tips on some journal exercises to just really think about things from a different perspective, looking at some of the brain, the neuroscience, as well as some of the theology, as well as just a lot of different parts. So

Sarah Bartel:

that is so cool. I just love that. This is about the whole person and, combining theology with neuroscience and. It sounds like important mindset skills as well. That's such great stuff. I love all of this. I just really love personal development and growth. And you know, we, cause we are, we're the authors of our own story, right? And we have so much more power than we realize to, to live like St. Irenaeus says, the glory of God is man fully alive, like to be more fully alive. So that's really wonderful. And is that at themirror.com or themirrorbook.com? Yes, themirrorbook.com Wonderful. Well, let's talk about sex and the single Catholic woman. I'm just so interested to know what you see from your vantage point really working with this community of single women. What are some of the challenges that they tend to come across regarding sexuality?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Oh man, this is such an important topic and it's actually something that I think. Particularly for women, there tends to be an extra cloak of shame around our sexuality, around our bodies, around arousal, around all those things. And in the single and dating space, It is rampant, for so many reasons, right? especially with our audience, a lot of them are, practicing Catholics, and they're really wanting to live their faith, and yet they're single, they desire to be married, they desire to have this beautiful union that they've heard about from Theology of the Body and different, Catholic sources, and yet they are struggling. You know, and this was something that we actually realized through coaching because some of the girls were coming and just sharing very vulnerably, like they were struggling with masturbation, or they were struggling with porn, or they were struggling with lust, with, the books, or the movies, or different things, and it was so beautiful to receive them, right, because these are such tender, tender spaces, because it wasn't like, oh, I just want to go into that space, but it was more that, You know, these feelings are coming up in me, and, it was more almost out of this desperation space of, you know what, I may never, it was like a hopelessness, but I may never get married, so I almost have to. It is just, you know, I'm trying to get rid of this ache. I'm feeling so hopeless that I just go down this path. and so I think, I think that's one of the spaces is, is just this place of this hopelessness sometimes that tends to well up. Where, and then they get caught in a cycle. You know, again, whether it's masturbation, whether it's porn, they just know that the struggle for purity is incredibly difficult. On top of that, we're so isolated as a culture, particularly since 2020, honestly. and we as human beings, we need touch. Touch, healthy touch is so important to thrive. It's so important. And especially for women, there's a lot of interesting research. around women's nervous system and oxytocin. that is super important, and we know that, healthy touch, you know, oxytocin can just thrive in that space, which helps our nervous systems to calm down, which helps us to not go into burnout, which we're seeing so many women enter into, especially when they've been single for a long time. And so, a lot of women, they don't know how to get that also. You know, because the sisterhood and friendships that used to be so normal, that can be a struggle at this point because all their friends are now married, or they're in a different season, you know, and can't be available. So we're just seeing that there is, a deep pain point when it comes to sexuality and the struggle around that, and the struggle around feeling loved, seen, known, and desired.

Sarah Bartel:

Oh, Wow. That is, and God just loves the hearts of his beloved daughters so much, right? That's so interesting what you say about touch and needing that and, I think that, opens a good, segue to talking about, what are some healthy ways a woman can nurture more touch just to, be a whole person embodied as well, in the flesh, when she's single.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

One of the things that we love to invite them into is go get a massage, you know, if that means for going, you know, some Starbucks visits or certain, you know, but to be able to, you know, save that little extra bit of money, whatever it is, right to, to get a massage. If you can once a month, go over your friend's house and pick up their children. You know, and some of these can have a double-edged sword, right? Because it does, it can be a poignant reminder of what you don't have and desire. And also can, still help foster that touch. The other thing, and this was really, really fascinating, that women can also build oxytocin through, Like rhythmic hand gestures, so like washing dishes slowly, knitting, folding clothes, crochet, different things like that. It sounds, you know, gardening. There's different things that actually help to boost oxytocin, which again can help to, To calm your nervous system, to feel more grounded, to help your hormones kind of balance out where you're not like, ah, I just need something to calm this down, we really encourage deep sisterhood and friendship, give each other a hug, play with each other's hair, all those things that when you're younger, you kind of naturally, you're always holding on to somebody as a kid and you're playing with hair and all those things that as little girls, we kind of do naturally. and even in college, you know, I think most of us, I remember sitting around in circles with my girlfriend's where someone's rubbing someone's back and someone's playing with someone's hair, and you know, you're spending this beautiful time together You're building oxytocin and you are helping your nervous system to be calm and it helps really, I mean everything for a woman. And so it's just a way for women to thrive. So that healthy touch we really, really encourage in all those different ways to recognize that desire you have to be touched is so good. The desire is good. It's healthy. It's not shameful. It's not wrong. but how can we foster healthy touching? And what, like, what does that look like in this season?

Sarah Bartel:

Oh, that's so good and so important. Now, to those single women who are struggling with masturbation, what do you recommend? Are there resources you can point them to?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

so one of our favorite for any kind of purity struggle, we love Magdala Ministries. we do have a podcast called Thriving in a Space Between and we had, one of the gals from there on and she was fantastic. So we're big fans of that program. we also love to invite them into having a battle plan. And one of the things we teach them, another course we offer is cycle syncing. And the reason that's important is because A lot of times what our women have noticed is that sexual desire tends to ramp up, of course, into follicular phase, into ovulatory phase. and so when they know their cycles, they can be aware of, okay, I know that around this time, it's going to be a lot harder with masturbation, or it's going to be a lot harder to be pure in my, you know, all those spaces. And we help them. Let's create a battle plan from there, okay? If I know that's going to be challenging, then I'm going ahead and I'm setting up dates with friends. I'm having a sleepover with my girlfriend, with one of my girls. I am, setting up a phone call. I am, planning all my social stuff. So I am, staying busy.-huh. You know, I am frequently frequenting the sacraments, I'm praying more, I'm using sacramentals, you know, I have a phone a friend ready, you know, and part of it, we open up these spaces within TIS so that they can have that honesty with their friends and with their cohorts, so that they can, you know, Not being alone in that struggle, so they can literally message when their girlfriend's in there and be like, Hey, it's a struggle, but I'll stay. I'm in the right place, you know. Can you call me at this time? And so we really help them come up with a battle plan to start to, do that. But we also invite them, what's underneath that? Because masturbation or porn or honestly any addiction, it's never about the addiction actually. It's that there is a wound underneath that. And something underneath that is that it's, it's trying to like, okay, we're going to distract with this. And, and so we invite them to also start to open up that spaces. A lot of times we invite our gals to know what is underneath that. And many times underneath that is a hopelessness.

Is it

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

like my desire to be married will never happen. it's a deep loneliness. You know, it's a deep sense of shame, maybe from something from childhood, so it doesn't really matter what I do, but then it compounds the shame. and, so we also invite them to like, let's peel back those layers. You know, what does it look like to look at that wound with Jesus? You know, what does it look like to, one aspect of, of coaching that we bring in is actually IFS, internal family systems. Parts work, right? Yes. Yeah. So we do, was trained with, by Dr. Jerry Crete through, kind of a first level, IFS so we can incorporate that he did this for coaches, and spiritual directors. And so it's been a beautiful space to incorporate for our gals. And that's been a game changer where understanding what's underneath those pain points. Dr. Peter Malinowski did an amazing, I think it was like a several part episode on basically what's underneath masturbation and porn. And, especially from a part's perspective. And it was interesting to hear that because now his was focused a little bit on men, but it was very similar for the women with like nuances, you know. but at the heart of these addictions, a lot of times we just think, Oh my gosh, I'm bad. and there's so much shame and really it's like, Oh, there's so much pain. It's just so much pain.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. And for some women too, it can be a compulsion that started when they were really little before they even were really aware of what was happening. so to just have compassion on yourself that now it's a deeply ingrained habit And I know I've worked with some women in my course who, yeah, it started from a really young age, like three or four and then, yeah, just have so much shame. about it when they learned as young adults, like this is simple, right? Totally. Yeah. That's so wonderful to point to Magdala Ministries. I'll definitely put a link to their work in the show notes for this episode. Well, let's talk now about the single woman who's dating and the struggles that she faces in navigating sexuality while being a dating woman. what do you see women come up against, regarding, how to navigate that space?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

so we've really seen kind of two extremes a lot of times. We typically see the gal who is, she is scared to death of touch, because she's so afraid it's going to lead into sin. So she doesn't want the guy to hold her hand. She doesn't want him to put her, you know, um, You know, don't even, like, if she's crossing the street, don't put your hand on the small of my back, you know, there's just a, don't, don't, you know, the hug, don't, it can't be any, you know, it's just a little, like, side hug, you know, so there can be a deep fear of, of embrace, of actually that, you know, I would call it a, of actually the encounter of another person with touch, you know, it's more like, there's can be fear around there that it's gonna be sinful, and then we have the other side where, You know, they're, they're diving super deep, sometimes emotionally that leads into the physical. They're, a hundred steps ahead and it's only, because we've created these stories in our minds and we think he's an amazing guy even though we've only gone on one date and had one conversation. so we've really seen a lot of these extremes. either we don't want touch at all or it's really hard because we love the touch and we want to stay in that space and again, shame can be in both places. Thank you.

Sarah Bartel:

Yes, I think that's so great to highlight because I've definitely worked with women who were so careful with sexual boundaries and purity in dating and engagement, not even kissing their fiancé during engagement, that then when it comes time to make love in marriage, they're completely, incapable. It's there's just so much anxiety. It's so hard to flip that switch from seeing sex and physical affection as something, shameful to then, embracing that in marriage. So what would you say to that young woman? Or, mature woman, who is so afraid of, physical touch and affection during dating, what would you say to kind of guide her and help reassure her that it's okay?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

So one of the things that we love to invite the ladies into, this idea of, you know, some things that Pope John Paul II talks about where it really is, again, if we're working to be in a, this alignment with the whole person, right, that our bodies are speaking a truth. And so what is the language we're saying with our body? Physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally, right? So if I've only been on a couple dates, well, is my physical affection or emotional affection, is it saying something more than what is the truth? So, we talk about that, like, what does that look like? We actually have something in one of our courses that we walk them through called the intimacy ladder. And it's, really kind of walking them through this process of where is, like, basically it's like how well am I knowing him? Here's some of the conversation spaces. because as you get to know someone, Trust builds, as trust builds, then that relationship builds, which makes it safer, and is more honest, right, with that physical affection. And so we walk them through kind of a process, it's a process of different questions and things to consider. but we also encourage them, you know, don't be afraid of that touch, right? Like, don't be afraid of, if he wants to hold your hand and, you know, he's taking you across the street or he's, giving you a good hug or whatever those things are, and we also tell them to, but it's also okay to be, like, if you don't like those because it feels scary or you're not comfortable, to also have the hard conversation. Because what sometimes has happened is, The guy just thinks she doesn't, you know, she doesn't like him because she's, oh, she's kind of a little bit frigid or a little bit stiff. When for her, maybe this is a really new space, so it feels super uncomfortable. You know, again, maybe because of purity culture, because of things she's heard. Oh my goodness, I can't, hug too close, what if I get aroused? And then I'm in, you know, and so we, kind of this cascade, right? And so we really love to encourage them to, You know, is the action, coming from a space of love, of self-gift, of receiving another, Of what is the mentality in that place? Like, are you kissing because I'm just trying to take something from you? Or is it like, no, there's a genuine affection between the two of us. I care for this man. Like, he's, you know, or it's been a beautiful space together, whatever it is. But to also, go back into, what is the truth? Because we're speaking a truth, hopefully, with our bodies, with our emotions. and so that's really the places that we love to invite our girls into, to hope, to hopefully open up some of that spaces so that fear and shame aren't running.

Sarah Bartel:

That's so good and so important. And then when we talk about boundaries, around sexual touch, and arousal, what kind of, Yeah, I guess what seems to work well in communicating about that with the women in your community.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Yeah. So actually, we had you as a guest on our podcast and some similar things that you had brought up, which is very, you know, any of those, like anything that bathing suit covers, like leave that, you know, leave that for marriage. I think it's so practical, right? the other thing that we also talk about is paying attention. I remember I had a dear girlfriend who, when she got engaged, she's like, when her and her now husband, when they were dating, they could kiss laying down and it was fine. You know, they were kind of cut up on the couch and, you know, wouldn't go into too far. The moment she got that ring on her finger, they came to a realization, Ooh, We can't do that. we escalate. Like, this does not work for us. The emotional mental shift that happened to her, that was super unexpected. And so, when it comes to boundaries, we love to encourage them to pay attention. if you're noticing that for some women kissing a little, you know, kissing at certainly again, even at certain times that are cycle is going to be maybe way more arousing than other times. And we encourage them, like have that communication with him though. Like, Hey, let him in on it, you know? and also like. Ask him to, you know, so that you guys are working on this together. we encourage to have that conversation, you know, sooner than later. What are your thoughts on purity? like healthy boundaries physically. So that you're both helping to safeguard that space for each other. And, our biggest thing with it is, You know, obviously, private parts, you know, those are for marriage, but also if you're noticing, gosh, when he touches my face this way, I get so turned on and I notice I just mentally go down this whole route and I just want to rip his clothes, you know, whatever it is, right,

you

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

know, but again, you're just so being present to what is happening. It is rather than a whole set of rules, yes, you're paying attention to what's coming up for me, what's coming up for him. So it's an attentiveness to one another as well as yourself being present to both your experience and the other's experience.

Sarah Bartel:

That's really good because it does change so much. It's such a, subjective experience, right? And yeah, different circumstances, different times of the month. what we're experiencing. Yeah, that's, I think that's really wise. Absolutely. a clear rule on let's not touch anything. A baby in suit covers like that's just because that becomes foreplay touch. Those are, those are touches that are appropriate for foreplay, which is, you know, for sex and marriage. But, but even noticing for me, you know, is it a hand on the small on my back or on my face? That whoo, you know. Especially during if I'm ovulating or the follicular phase, that's going to be too much for me to tell your boyfriend or fiance that like, okay, can you please help me? You know, I'm extra sensitive during these times. So please, you know, I'm not pushing you away. I love, you know, I'm really happy to be with you. But this is just something I know about myself and can you, you know, work with me during these times to express our connection and our affection in different ways. That's really cool. Yeah. Oh, So great. What about that single woman who regrets her going too far sexually? Maybe she's had sex or something along the way, maybe something that was a sexual type activity, even if it wasn't full intercourse. And now she is. I know that I've had women my course who feel like the pain that they experienced during intercourse in marriage is God's punishment to them because they had sex with a boyfriend in college before they were married, which is so sad. God doesn't do that. That's not theirs. These are two separate things and you know, he can forgive, How do you and Megan talk with women about that, when that shame they feel when they've gone too far?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

one of the things that we do quite a bit of, I would say almost call it like somatic or body work with the Lord. Oh. And some emotional processing because, again, when it comes to, when someone's gone too far, especially in the sexual space, it becomes a wound, usually, On the identity. The identity as daughter. The identity of, as beloved. The identity, even that the father is good, that he's not here ready to punish you because you didn't do that perfectly. And so we actually take them through some beautiful healing work to help go through some emotional processing of that shame. because they typically have gone to confession, but they're still holding on to the regrets, they're holding on to, all the story that they're telling themselves about there. So we do take them through quite a bit of releasing from that, that has been really beautiful and very healing. we do some healing prayer with them or we invite them again to like, to sit with the Lord. What does it feel like to let yourself, just be loved by the Lord? Like, but you have to, you actually have to practice that and sit in that, right? Because a lot of times that doesn't come natural for many of us. we're actually leading, in TIS, a kind of a high-level small group mastermind of gals, where we're doing a lot of that internal work, and the first one was identity, and so one of the things we did was we watched in The Chosen, the very first one in episode, it's episode one, season one, and the very last three minutes of it, where Mary Magdalene, You know, she had wanted to kill herself, and she didn't, and, she's in this bar with this guy, and she's basically, you know, give me that drink, the alcohol, You know, gets porn and has her in her hands on, on it. And Jesus comes into the bar and he puts his hand over here and kind of sets it down. He's like, that's not for you. And then she immediately gets up and she runs outside and he's, he's following each and she's looking back and she's like, who are you? What do you want? And, and all of a sudden he, he says, Mary of Magdala. And there's this silence and she stops and tears start just streaming down her face because everyone knew her as Liliath. When she was little, it hit flashback to the scene when she was little. Her dad would kind of speak her identity over her. That, you know, in this verse in scripture where it talks about, like, you know, I have chosen you, like, you are mine. and, but, you know, her life looks so different. You know, her dad died, and then her, the life looks so different. And, you know, again, and, And so when Jesus, but he, he, and he, he walks over to her and I almost like started to cry every time I had cried every single time at this scene. and he says, Mary Magdalene, she just stops And she starts crying and Jesus, walks over to her and he just reaches out for her and she lets herself literally just collapse in his arm and he wraps her up and she sobs and you see those, just those years of, the pain that she went through because she didn't know her identity because she didn't know she was loved because of all the shame of the choices she made. And you see it just washed away in this one encounter with Christ.

And

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

so we take them through this process then where they actually sit with that and they put themselves in that scene and they're like, they're that Mary Magdalene. And so we walk them through this beautiful process So I think one of those spaces is inviting them into this healing work with the Lord because he, he's not here ready to like, let me smite you because you did this. Let me punish you. Let me make your relationships miserable or your marriage. No, like that's not who the Lord is. And the enemy loves to trick us into thinking that he's something he's, you know, that the father is not good, you know, the lies as old as the garden, but it still comes up. yes, I think that's some of the big work that we love to invite the girls into that, you know, you're not broken because of those choices. You're not beyond repair. you don't have to live in that shame. And then we really invite them to invite the Lord in there. we also do some breaking of soul ties as well, spiritually, to kind of clean up those spaces. that's usually what that looks like for us with our girls.

Sarah Bartel:

That's so powerful and profound. And we were talking about speaking her identity to her. This is what every woman really needs, is to know her identity as beloved, as worthy, And that's where the enemy attacks us so much, right? That, yeah, either, and he's so, so clever, right? He'll either say, you're inadequate, you're not enough, or you're too much. Totally. People can't handle all that you've, right? Yeah, but to know that we are just how God made us to be, and it's worthy and good. That's really, really beautiful.

Let's

Sarah Bartel:

talk just in the last few minutes here about the woman who is engaged and what this is like for her as she, you know, develops in her sexuality. that's so interesting what you said about the woman who noticed once the ring was on her finger. Laying down kissing was no longer a safe activity for Beyonce. But what are some things you hear from women about being engaged and navigating their sexuality?

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Yeah, so one of the things that we have really started inviting them into, because a lot of them, have started asking some of those questions like what do I need to know here and one of the things number one I love to point them to you because I just think again that you have so much gold, with the women and in this space, but a lot of them have this fear around their wedding night. A lot of them have fear around sex Is it gonna hurt? that's a pretty common fear that has come up You know, is he going to like my body? you know, again, it can be a lot of fear in that space. And one of the things that we have recommended to our gals is seeing a pelvic floor therapist just in preparation for that. We think that's just in general, a great thing to do.

Yes.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

and then also to just start, because we encourage that process, in the dating and then into engagement to your body speaking a truth. So it makes sense that again, as you get closer to your wedding, there's a little bit more affection. There's a little bit deeper, you know, there's just, constantly like staying where you are in that process. But I think for, for the women, there's kind of this, yeah, it's a navigating of, Oh, wait, what does that look like now in this season? You know, and helping them to, again, not be so fearful of it, you know, encourage them to have the conversation with your fiancé about sex. What are you excited about? What are you fearful about? Like, share that, you know, to have those really honest conversations. What are your expectations? What are my expectations? you know, so we encourage all throughout TIS, we encourage to have the hard conversations early and have hard conversations often, you know, early and often it makes it, you know, having those early and often make the things a lot easier. And so I think that for a lot of men, there is, there's this fear around that aspect of marriage, around sex, and, they know the theology of it usually really well, but the ins and outs, they don't, and so that feels so scary because they don't know about their body, you know, they don't know, one of our engaged gals, we have five right now, which is really exciting, one of the things she's like, you know, she's like, I feel like this is a place that so many engaged, especially for Catholic women. There's not a ton of resources right now for them. And she's like, you know, she's like, I'm glad that we've had these conversations. I'm glad that we haven't let shame. She's like, I'm so glad I didn't let shame keep me from asking questions that I could have felt dumb asking, you know, like, well, what about this with my body? I loved her courage in that. I was just like, no, I'm not going to feel dumb because I don't know this. I wasn't taught. I don't know? And so, yes, I think shame can. Start to pick up in some of those spaces. So we love, again, I think the enemy loves darkness and I think he loves, like, let's just keep it under the bushel. Let's not talk about it. Let's not bring it out, you know, and we love to just like, let's take the blanket off. Like, let's just, let's shine that flashlight in there and let's just bring it out and let's just say it because like, God made it. So if God made it, it's not a bad thing, you know, and even if something has been twisted, like, let's open up that. What does it look like to untwist it, you know? And so. I think those are all things that tend to come up for engaged gals is, you know, some of the fear, both of the pain and of, you know, what's, I don't know, will he like my body? And, you know, what is this like?

Sarah Bartel:

That's so good. I love that you're encouraging conversations about it, encouraging asking the questions, The engaged woman talk with her fiance, just to be able to start normalizing talking with each other about sex. Something that I encourage them to continue doing in their marriage as well. One woman in my course, in the past said that she and her husband wouldn't even really look each other in the eye the morning after they'd made love. They were both just sort of, slinking around like, oh, what we did was so secret. You have to bring it out into the light and talk with it. It's just a human experience, right? And every married woman except the Blessed Virgin and maybe a handful of others in unique circumstances, right? Sex is part of married life and it's just, there it is. It's just a human experience. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting. I think that a lot of times when we're made, we're formed to expect pain, right? Then it's more likely to happen, right? When we hear from their moms, like, Oh honey, just drink a glass of wine and do it for God and country, right? Then they're more likely to prepare themselves to expect it to be painful. It's not painful for every woman. There's so many women who have sex the first time and there's no pain.

Yeah.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Yeah. I think also there's, you know, again, I agree because so much of our mindset impacts our biology, our anatomy, you know, what we think, I mean, they've done some interesting research. It's kind of a little bit of a tangent, but it ties in with it. Where they had a group, they had two groups, and one group drank milkshakes, and they told them you're drinking a milkshake, and the other group, drank a smoothie. And they said, hey, group is drinking a milkshake, you're drinking that, and the smoothie group, and they measured their glucose and their blood level, and all the things, right? And then they switched them, but they didn't tell them, so the group that was drinking the smoothie now thought, you know, kept thinking, was thinking, yep, I'm still drinking a smoothie. The group who's drinking the milkshake was thinking, I'm drinking a milkshake, but, but they had switched, so really the milkshake group was actually drinking a healthy smoothie. The healthy smoothie group was actually drinking the milkshake. But what was interesting was, You didn't see a big shift in their blood levels being measured and all this because they were, yeah, the group that was drinking a smoothies when they were thinking they were drinking the milkshake, they actually gained weight and compared to the milkshake group.

Sarah Bartel:

They react their bodies on the smoothies because they thought they were having milkshakes.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Yeah. So what that tells us is that our bodies really do react to what we think. It's not the only factor, but it is a factor. So it really does impact, what we're thinking about impacts how our body responds. And so it makes sense, right? If we're. obsessively think, you know, ruminating, Oh my gosh, it's going to hurt. It's going to be painful, right? That's going to cause this stress in our body and our nervous system and everything else, right? Which makes things tighten and close off. So of course it's going to be painful then, right? You're expecting this. versus I think like, we've had gals who, as they've gone to pelvic floor therapy and as they've had these deeper conversations with their fiances, where they're like, Oh, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I'm actually like super excited now, like I'm not worried about it. I'm excited about it. I can't wait. And they literally went from like, I'm kind of scared to like, no, I'm like super excited now. And so we've seen these beautiful shifts as they start to be familiar with their body You know, having the conversations and preparing their mind, their mental space around that, that we can take it slow. We can, go the pace that works.

Sarah Bartel:

Yes, absolutely. I love tangents too. And as you were talking, I was thinking about when I was preparing for natural childbirth, I had my five kiddos, beautiful natural birth and did a lot of reading and, Preparing for those. And this shows up with birth as well. You know, if we expect birth to be painful, it's much more likely to be painful. I mean, it's not a surefire thing that, you know, you prepare yourself for a, it's just a birth that just feels like power surges and, you know, change the language around it that you're definitely not going to experience something that feels like pain. But there's a lot of correlation there. You know, that what our brains believe about what we're going to experience really does affect us so much.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Yeah. Oh, it's huge. I'm a doula as well. And so we've seen that with mom as we, you know, we had that conversation right off the bat is that, you know, again, what you're expecting in that space, we orient a lot of times towards that, you know, we have something in our brain called erectile activating system. And it's basically this God-given, you know, filter system. So what we focus on, we see more of, we experience more of, because it filters out the other stuff. God's brilliant the way he made us.

Sarah Bartel:

Well, and our vaginal muscles are so sensitive to our nervous system. And your brain is the biggest organ in your nervous system. So, of course, what the brain believes is going to affect, our tightening, our relaxing, and all that. Marie, it sounds like just really special what you and Megan have created with the intentional single and just the work that you do in coaching. Thank you so much for bringing some of that wisdom and expertise to this conversation. And I can tell we have kindred spirits of a lot of similar interests and formation being from the John Paul II generation. I want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us about thriving in single life, especially navigating sexuality in those single years.

Maria Spears Mumaugh:

Awesome.

Sarah Bartel:

Thank you so much, Sarah. God bless. I just want to remind everyone you can find Maria Spears-Mumau as well as Megan, at theintentionalsingle.com and Maria's book is at themirrorbook.com. All right. God bless you all. Bye. Bye.