What Is There for Husbands? ... with Nathan Bartel

In this episode, Sarah welcomes special guest Nathan Bartel... her husband! 

Sarah asks Nathan about what led him to create his Holy Desires course for husbands. Along the way, they chat about:

• Philosophy (Nathan's Master's degree from CUA and his love of Aristotle)
• Virtue
• Struggles Husbands Face (mismatched libidos in marriage, not knowing how their wives' sexuality works, and finding the time amidst work and kids)
• Sex in Three Acts (Act I: Beforeplay + Foreplay, Act II: Intercourse, Act II: Afterglow)
• Men are Helicopters, Women are Jet Planes (Nathan reacts to a metaphor Sarah is testing out to help highlight the difference between men's and women's sexual responses.)

Nathan's 6-week Holy Desires class open through Friday, Oct. 10th, and won't reopen until March 2026. Check it out here if interested.

Want his free guide, Three Secrets to Becoming the Lover of Her Dreams? Here you go!

MORE RESOURCES

Free Enhancing Marital Intimacy Guide for Catholic Women: 9 Skills for Body, Mind, and Spirit (for married and engaged women)

Do you want to know what is allowed for Catholics in the bedroom? The "What's Allowed List" answers 20+ questions about what is licit and illicit. ($10)

Model-free lingerie! Get 10% off with my affiliate link for Mentionables.

Transcript

0:50

I have a very special guest on in this episode. I've had requests from friends and other women who I work with to hear from the husband's point of view. So joining us today, I have my very own husband, my wonderful husband of 25 years. Nathan, welcome Nathan. Hello. Hello. I'm so happy to be here today. Great to have you on the podcast. Just say you've got a special connection with this guest. Yes, that's right. We had to arrange our calendars. Um, okay, so Nathan, you have actually stepped up to the plate to answer this call request that both of us had been hearing for several years as I was offering the My Delight course for Catholic women. And the question kept coming up. What is there for Catholic husbands. Yeah, and I, I heard that from the ladies that you work with a lot and from other places as well. And yeah. After seeing how great your, my Delight class is and how much transformation the women who go through that experience, I felt really called to help men also, because that was a missing piece. Mm-hmm. This is, uh, obviously sex is two people, not one, and, um. Helping the men, the husbands is definitely a, a missing piece for, you know, creating a beautiful sex life in marriage. So you started Holy Desires to help Catholic men with their love lives, with their hus, their wives, um, earlier this year. Can you, that's, talk about what that was like for you, thinking about starting the class, putting it together and then running your first six. It was a six weeks week. A programs six week program. Yeah. And wow. It was a leap of faith. I'll bet You can relate. Yeah. So stepping out, it's obviously a sensitive, intimate topic, talking about sex and. I think that's why not a lot of people do it. Like it's really, really difficult, as you know. Mm-hmm. To find a place that is both theologically grounded, but also super practical and gets into the nitty gritties and talks about, you know, the, the very detailed techniques and, and everything that you need. To know. Um, so it was, it was a leap of faith, but it was so rewarded. God blessed it abundantly. Um, I think I had 30 some men join me in the spring. Oh, wow. And it was a great group. Um, the calls were fantastic. The men were super engaged, and we had some great discussion during that course. In the spring, I was recording the, the prerecorded lessons for the course as I went. Oh, right. So this time around everything is already recorded, and now I get the fun of adding extra bonuses. And new content for the fall, but all the core basic stuff is already there. And so anyone who joins will get access to that whole thing immediately. But it went, it went so well in the spring and lots of men had really, really profound and wonderful, uh, experiences. And I remember one said about communication. He said, you know. I've never talked with my wife about sex before and now it's, it was so amazing. And he said communication in general in his whole marriage was so much improved. So I'm sure you see that also. So there were ripple effects beyond just the bedroom. Absolutely. To the marriage more broadly speaking for this fellow. Yeah, for sure. So was that in March that you. You did first? Yes. It was in March, your first, first cohort, and now we're recording in October and doors are open again for any Catholic husbands who want to step in and invest and really learn and grow in this area. Okay. I was just thinking. Uh, back to both of us about 20 years ago or so, 22 years ago, when we were both graduate students at the Catholic University of America. Yep. I was studying theology. And you were a graduate student in philosophy. I was studying philosophy. And you got your master's. That's right. In philosophy from CUA. Mm-hmm. Could you ever have guessed that? Decades later, you would be using your knowledge and skills and strong Catholic faith and principles in this area. No. No, no, of course not. And you either, right? Right. Like when we were studying Thomas Aquinas and I was mm-hmm. Studying Aristotle and No. Do you find that there's any way that you draw on that? Like, I remember you are. Huge, huge fan of Aristotle and the virtue being the mean between the extremes and Absolutely. I use it all the time. It's just so ingrained in how I think. Mm-hmm. And it comes out all the time, especially that idea of the virtue between extremes, right? Mm-hmm. And it's so. Formative for our Catholic moral tradition in general, and there's so many applications for marriage from the moral life and for sex. Mm-hmm. Honestly. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. I mean, for us, a love life in a marriage to go, well, we have to have virtue. We have to know how to moderate ourselves. Yeah. And how to find that mean, that thriving area between being like too abstemious and squeamish and finicky and, um, what is that? Wasn't there a word that Aristotle had for like, when you don't enjoy things, I forget what that was. Oh, he probably don't. When we was talking about the virtue of temperance, right? Mm-hmm. Because then there's overindulging, right? Right. And that is definitely. Something we still need to consider with love making and marriage. Are we just focusing so much on the physical pleasure? Mm-hmm. And, you know, um, seeking too much of a good thing as it were, while disregarding the person. I think what's different with a Christian, a Catholic view versus like the classical pre-Christian view, and when we think about the virtue, so I was getting a little abstract, like we really have love and the human person as the mean, as the. Guiding principle, the measure, right? Yeah. So I'm thinking about love making, like if both the husband and wife have, they have to have loving like the, the good and the wellbeing of the other in mind as a whole person. Not just the physical, not, you know, but also the heart and the spirit. So, absolutely. Yeah. And you know, uh. Uh, our Catholic understanding, of course, sees sex as the sort of culmination, the reflection of that deep connection. Mm-hmm. And love of two persons in love. Mm-hmm. And that has then expressed in sex. And it's a virtuous cycle, right? Mm-hmm. We express it. And that expression also deepens it. Mm-hmm. Or it should. It should. It should. That's the ideal. Yeah. Wow. So much to say. I actually didn't intend to get all philosophical, but I was just remembering. I'm happy to go there. A background. Of course you are. Okay. So what are some of the pain points that, you know, like the struggles that husbands are having that would bring them to Holy Desires? Yeah, well, a lot of them. I hate to say it to sound stereotypical, but it really is a, a real struggle. There is a, a very common struggle of men experiencing frustration in mismatched desires and libido. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, that is real, but it is also real that it can flip. Mm-hmm. It could be like the husband doesn't desire love making spontaneously as much as the wife. As much as the wife. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So I've had both of those. Uh, sides of that coin. Mm-hmm. And so we'll just say mismatch desires. Right. Could go either way. It can go either way. Another is husbands often just don't understand how their wives' bodies work. And there's just, we're so mysterious. You are elusive. You're, I love the meme, and maybe this is too visual for a podcast, but you know, like how men work. There's like a little dial. Not even a dial. Just a switch. A switch on and off, on and off. Right. And then underneath, it's like how women work and it's like this space shuttle control panel, you know, it's like 84 different dials and knobs and levers and yeah. That's be so special. That's right. And you know, decoding that. Mm-hmm. Mystery of the female body. Mm-hmm. And how the female bo not just female body, but female person mm-hmm. Works mm-hmm. To receive and experience and be open to pleasure. There's a lot of education that is needed in that. Zone. Mm-hmm. And I would say seeing your work with women, women also need that education. Yes. And if, if the wives don't know, the men definitely don't know. Oh. So often I'll have a wife say, I don't even know what I want. He asks what, what I want, and I don't even know. So, dude, I, yeah. I find I need to list some options as I'm teaching and guiding and explain like, well, you know, you could try such and such or such and such. Exactly. Like, oh, oh, okay. Yeah. And so when I teach. Husbands, you know, I also provide those options and that like list. So if they have a conversation with their wife and the wife says, I don't know, you know? Mm-hmm. There's someplace to go with that conversation. Like, let's try this, let's try that. Let's discuss this. Yeah. What are some other struggles I would say another one that is also very relatable to women as well is just. A busy, stressful life. Oh, right. Like it can be really, really challenging. You know, when you've got a house full of kids. Mm-hmm. Lots of activities, lots of stress, jobs. All the things. All the things. Church activities, dare I say, church activities, you may scout, you dare. Mm-hmm. It's just really hard to find the time and make. Love making makes sex a priority, but as I think you mm-hmm. Also agree, sex isn't just desserts, not, it's not what you fit in when you've finished everything else. Exactly. It's not what you get after you eat your vegetables.'cause you've been so responsible. So good. Exactly. Good, good job. Now you reward, then you get it. It's important and it does need to be prioritized and it does need to find a place in your life. Practically speaking. It can't just fit in around the edges because. Busy families don't have any edges. And I would say that it's important to realize by fitting it in, we don't mean just do it exhausted. Just suck it up. That's true. And no, no, we mean. Like carve out space and time in your schedule for some rest and relaxation and connection and fun. Like make time. And that means sacrificing other things. Yeah. You have to look and see what to say no to. That's it. In order to say yes to your marriage in this way. And what I always tell men is we're not. I don't teach them to schedule sex. I teach them to schedule date nights. Oh. Because it's the, again, it's the connection with your wife. That's really important. And if you have a whole evening to connect with your wife, guess what a great time to have sexes after a great date. Yeah. But I would say in some couples, we don't wanna set up this sense of like performance anxiety. Oh no, it's date night. I know what that means. We're gonna have to do it. You know, like that's true. We, but. I think date night is super important or just, okay. Let's broadly just say time to connect with each other. Yeah. At least weekly. Yeah. Um, and that if you have that on a regular basis in your marriage, that creates an environment where. It's more likely for, um, you know, the wife's heart to feel up for connecting sexually as well, but you, I don't know whether it works and talk with each other, right? Like talk with each other. What would work best? Should we try and schedule and see how it goes? And like tentatively pencil in some love making time after date night? Would that be nice Or would it be nice to just feel like my husband just wants no pressure, my heart, he just wants to connect with me. He cares about me. He's not going through date night just to get to the prize at the end. That is a really, that's really good point. And one of the myths, uh, that I talk about in my first module of the course mm-hmm. Is sex is transactional. Right. That's a bad myth. Right. It's a bad myth. Yeah. It's, it's a toxic belief is what it is. And even though most of us probably wouldn't say that to ourselves, sometimes we act that way. Like, I'll be nice to her because. Maybe we'll get in bed later tonight. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, whatever. Or she might feel like this burden of debt on her side. Like, well, he loved the dishwasher and help with the kids. I know what he wants. Okay. Even though I'm exhausted. Right. And And sex is not a transaction in that way? No, no, no. Because sex is an expression of love, and love is not transactional. That's it. Love is the sharing of persons. There's so much more to say about all of that, and I think we'll have to do more podcasts together. We'll have to do a follow up together. There's just so much to unpack, but I wanna explore this idea that you, um, came up with this structure, which I think is really helpful about sex in three acts. When you look at a love making session, can you talk about that and Yeah. What you mean? Is this something that you teach inside your content? I do, I do. Oh, okay, great. I, and I love this. Um, and as far as I know, I think I created it. I'm, I, maybe I heard it some somewhere, but I don't think so. I think I came up with this, and it's just a simple way to think about the different stages of making love. So one of the challenges that men have. Is just going too fast. Mm-hmm. Right. Like finishing too quickly and leaving their wives in the dust, so to speak. Right. Unfulfilled. Mm-hmm. That's one. One of the challenges. So one of the ways to think about making love and having sex is in three acts, and it helps like extend that and. And then we can talk about what happens in, during each one of those acts. So here's the three acts. Act one is foreplay, and I split this into two scenes. So act one, scene one, nice is what I call B for play. And I think I got that from you, Sarah. Yeah. Yeah. But I am hearing your English major from undergrad coming out in this. Ha. Like all that Shakespeare you read. Absolutely. See that's where we're, we're seeing here, but yes, absolutely. Barely in my dear Uhhuh for Soth for, so, um, yes. Okay. Act one, scene one before play. Yes. So before play is the time. Clothes are probably still on. This is the transition time. Really. Oh yeah. It's allowed. So important transition. It's making sure that the room is nice. The lighting is nice, things are put away. And then, you know, activities to do during this time are like a back rub. Mm-hmm. Or a gentle, um, even a discussion. Um, this is where I teach men to really talk to their wives. Mm-hmm. Because it's the least awkward. Bought within, making Love to Pray. For example, you can have a back rub, pray, and then offer a prayer. Mm-hmm. To God, like during this time, God, please bless our union together. Bless our love making, bless this connection that we have. Um, bless the renewal of our covenant. Absolutely celebrate our marriage and our love. Yes. Help me to make my. Husband or my wife feel very loved and delighted at our union. Mm-hmm. So this is a great time to talk, to share memories of other romantic times that you've had together to pray. And this is really, uh, important transition for many women to start letting that stress of the day leave their body. Oh yeah. Wife's point of view, she still has a million things running through her mind. Absolutely. The to-dos the things that she didn't get to today.'cause there were only, you know, 24 hours in that day, only 24 hours, but she had like 48 hours worth of things to do for sure. But yeah. So what, um, first of all. I love that you mentioned, um, should we say setting the stage? Sure. That's like tidying the room, lighting a candle. These are ways that the husband can really do practical things that will help put his mind, his wife's mind, more at ease. Yes. Yes. And instead of just sitting there waiting in bed, you know, like, you ready up? That's right. But yeah, he can show these practical, you know, ways that, uh, he cares about this time and wants to make it nice for her. Mm-hmm. Um, that's right, because she's probably still Yeah, she has a lot to do. That's right. That's right. So act, that's act one. Scene one, the foreplay. Act two, act one. Scene two is foreplay. Okay. B four play and then the foreplay. Yeah. In the B four play, what can you do to reassure her, you know, like to help that burden in her mind, be like, okay, yeah, there is still a lot to do. I mean, I'm just, yeah. I would say this is kind of some phrases to that we can model for like, yeah, this might be somewhat individual, but I'll throw some things out. Mm-hmm. And obviously anyone listening to this talked with each other. Right. Say what would be helpful to hear, what would be helpful. Right. Maybe it would be helpful. For the husband to say, you know, what's on your mind, just like get it out of your mind. Yeah, let her just, that can be really helpful. Release it all. And chatter, I'm just gonna give you a, a back rub and you just like, let me know all the things you think about what's, what are you thinking about? What's preventing you? That would be like comforting for her, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and maybe show some signs that you hear like exactly what active listening. Like Oh, okay. The kid's registration. Yeah. Wow. You know, like that's important. Repeat a bit of what you hear so she knows you're hearing it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm just for sure. You could even offer to do some of the things on the list. Extra credit, extra credit. Um, and then lots of yes, reassurances, reassurance. Um, things are great and obviously expressions of love and affection and, and, uh, affirmations, right? Mm-hmm. Tell her, tell her what she did great today. Tell her what a wonderful woman she is. Tell her how proud you are of her. If she is talking about what happened during the day, affirm that, oh, you, you know, thank you for taking the kids here and there. Thank you for getting that registration done. Thank you for, you know, bringing the meal to the neighbor. I don't know, whatever. Yeah, and this can go both ways too. Maybe the husband has a lot on his mind. Maybe there's, um, you know, things that he's thinking about work or, uh, politics or, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because family origin things. Yeah. Many men are. Carry a lot of stress, especially from career and work. Mm-hmm. Right. And so take this time, this before play time isn't just for the women, it is also for men and men's experience of sex can absolutely be enhanced and improved through letting go of that stress. Mm-hmm. In our own bodies as well. We're all human in that way. Mm-hmm. And it can absolutely create. A better connection and a better receptivity to pleasure and joy. Yeah. Feeling heard, feeling cared for, feeling affirmed. That's not just something that's helpful for women. Oh, that's helpful for men too. Yes. So take some time if you're the spouse listening, like really receive that with honor and reverence. Mm-hmm. Like, oh. Husband, my wife is sharing all this with me. This is important to her and it's an honor for me to receive that. Yeah, to be the one, because here you're building emotional connection. It's the connection. I was just gonna say the same thing. You know, the act of sex and intercourse is, like we said earlier, I. Ideally it is a reflection of, and a consummation of that connection mm-hmm. That is already there between the spouses. So this is a time to renew that emotional connection as well. Okay. Can we do a little myth busting here? Yeah. What? Oh yeah. You know, I know where you're going. You know where I'm going. I know exactly where you're going. I'm going to the myth I am pretty sure this comes from, I, maybe it could go down a rabbit hole of research, but, uh, I, I'm thinking this probably comes from some Protestant authors and speakers in past decades. This is the myth, the idea that men need sex in order to feel an emotional, it needs to be sex first. Then they feel connected or emotional connection can come after sex. Right. I've heard this. And whereas for women, they need emotional connection first, then sex. And so yeah, women need to just be there sexually for their husbands so that their husbands can feel connected to them. What do we wanna say about this? Okay, so first of all, on its face, this is just not the way it works. That's not how humans are structured. No. And let's just, let's just go to the beginning of a relationship. What happens? We get to know someone emotionally. By talking. By talking. We go on dates. We spend time with each other. We spend time with each other. We then get engaged. We get married, then we have sex. Right. It's like after all of that, then the sex comes, the consummation, the culmination, consummation of that relationship that's been built over time. Exactly, but through communication. So I mean to say that men need sex in order to have an emotional connection, that means you have to have sex with a woman before you take her on a date. Like that just doesn't make sense. I'm sure that happens, but it's disorder. Well, yeah, but nobody, we're not suggesting that No, no, no. This is not the way things are supposed to work. I like to point to the Catholic mass actually. Yes, I know. That's another great spot. Because what happens at Mass first? Oh, there's, I mean, I think I may have talked about this on other episodes. I think you have, but at any rate, first we have the liturgy of the word, where there is a conversation between God and us that involves words. Like it's right there in the name of this, part of the liturgy. Liturgy of the word. God speaks to us in the Old Testament reading the New Testament, reading the gospel, the, there's a Psalm response, theorial, psm. So we are responding to God. We have the prayers of the faithful, like there is a back and forth communication. Mm-hmm. That involves words. And then we have the physical union. The communion in the liturgy of the Eucharist. That's right. So this is how God does it. He has some talking with us and listening to us and, you know, really building up that unity that way first before coming inside us in holy communion in physical union. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's, there's a Catholic take on absolutely. How to answer this question. Absolutely. Okay. So sex and three acts that we went No. Oh, go ahead. I, I will say though, I think that like most myths, there's a little nugget of truth in here, right. Because sex is a powerful experience. And like we said earlier, it is like this virtuous cycle. Mm-hmm. You can't shortcut past the emotional connection. Mm-hmm. And go straight to sex. But it is true that. Y having well connected beautiful sex can increase the connection between, right? A couple. Oh yeah. You get the absolutely oxytocin flowing. You feel all this gratitude and lovey veness, hopefully, you know, if everything went well, ideally, yeah. Um, right. And so maybe the husband is remembering that and like, okay, that's what it means to feel connected. Right. I wanna get to that. Sex is the best way. And um, yeah, so much more to say like that is important and beautiful and good and um, but it will be a fuller experience if we proceed it with emotional connection. Absolutely. And also I would say that. Maybe for women, some women and some men, maybe their capacity for emotional connection, maybe that doesn't feel as natural or intuitive. Hmm. Or they have a lot of other feelings like stress and anxiety and depression, and those feelings can be relieved through intercourse a lot of times. Right. And so maybe there's just like a overdependence on sex to do all the work of that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Rather than finding other appropriate ways to manage stress. To boost depression to, you know, care for your heart. Yeah. Sex shouldn't become an emotional crutch. Right. Because then you end up using another person for your emotional management in a very unhealthy way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you, you have to every human right. Men, women, women, women, yeah. Um, need to manage their interior lives. Yeah. In a healthy way, well stated. Thank you. Okay. We are to act one, scene two now, right? Yes. Okay. So we've got a nice connection. Mm-hmm. In foreplay and we B foreplay. Mm-hmm. Now, so foreplay is, now we are, clothes are coming off, we're starting to get aroused, and this is the stage where men need to especially slow down. That's right. So this is not a sprint. Sex is not a sprint to the finish line. Mm-hmm. Um, enjoy it. It's a leisurely stroll. It's not a sprint. Mm-hmm. Right. Enjoy the process. And the process involves exploring slowly your wife's body and. Very slowly circling in to those more erogenous zones. Mm-hmm. Um, clothes can come off slowly. It doesn't have to be like this, you know, terrier clothes off and a fit of passion, um, type of experience and, uh, following your advice as well. Like 30 minutes of foreplay. Mm-hmm. Like this act one should be 30 minutes minimum. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I really like that you mentioned circles. I notice in my most recent weekly group coaching call with my current, my Delight students, when I mention that, you know, we, when we think about men, often it's fairly linear. Yeah. Lines and women, we think about, we're curvy, curvy circles. So circle in, let's not just rush straight to the most erogenous zones. Yeah. Immediately. Let's circle in, let's get close. Then back away. Let's, you know, stroke exterior lines of her body. Right. And, um, for quite a while. And like ease into it. Yeah. And like physically when. I'm just gonna go, go for it. You right. You go do it. I'm gonna go for it. Yeah. When the clitoris is stimulated, before the woman is aroused and ready mm-hmm. For that touch, it can be very dis comfortable, right? Yeah. Uncomfortable. Yeah. Discomforting. Um, it doesn't feel good, right? Like her nervous system is on high alert still. Right. And she, you, I mean, think about like gling a horse. Yeah. You need to calm and soothe that, that creature. With, you know, connection and attunement and care before the horse is gonna let you hop on and ride her. Right? Right. There you go. But, um, and then that, that organ, the clitoris has what, 8,000 nerve endings, which is twice as dense as the male penis, right? Mm-hmm. So it's very, very sensitive and if you touch that. Organ before it is ready, that sensitivity will register as pain. Mm-hmm. Or could Or discomfort Or just unwelcome. Or just unwelcome. Like, well how are you doing? Like a shock or like squeamishness. Exactly. So when I teach this to my men, I remember one guy in particular, he said, wow. That was so helpful. That always super confused me, that touching the same spot of my wife in one time, at one time is very uncomfortable for her and at another time is very welcoming. Mm-hmm. Right, because it's this change over time. Right. And women and men are different. Men are pretty like. Speaking generally, pretty simple. Mm-hmm. Like men prefer a nice direct touch. Mm-hmm. Right there. Mm-hmm. It's fine. It feels good. Mm-hmm. But this is some of the, I. Education that is needed. Mm-hmm. Exactly. For men and women, both. So act one, scene two is this 30 minutes of foreplay that includes a gentle, like easing into it. Circling in, mm-hmm. Stroking, touching, talking. I'm gonna mention talking too. Yeah, keep talking. You don't have to stop now. Yeah, because. Um, hearing our husband's voice is often very connecting and reassuring mm-hmm. For us wives, and it disrupts the negative thoughts that might start creeping into her mind or the to-do list or the distracting thoughts or whatever. Right. Or the like, ah, my fat rolls or whatever, you know, or like, he's probably thinking about, you know, who he is been with before or whatever. Mm-hmm. If he's talking to you now right. Then you know that you two are just in the moment with each other. That's right. Yeah, and I actually provide some specific scripts and ideas mm-hmm. For how men can do this and what to say, because it's really challenging. Mm-hmm. For a lot of men. Mm-hmm. Yeah, all the blood flow might not be in the brain at that point. Yeah, you've, that's right. So it might be good to, you know, plan ahead of time some talking points. Exactly. Okay, so, so then we've got, we finished act one and we're onto to act two. Whats that? Right? So act two is intercourse itself, right? Mm-hmm. So this is penetration this again. So in. In both act one, scene two, foreplay. Mm-hmm. As well as an intercourse. I talk a lot about arousal curves. Mm-hmm. And how women's arousal curves are typically much slower and men's typically can be much faster. Mm-hmm. And what can we do as men to honor our wives? Natural physical responses, which, and the times that they have, this was God's like, God did this. God designed this. This was not us. This is not women being inadequate or men being, you know, too fast. This is, God is the one who made us different this way. Yep. And I think it is a call to communion. I think he did this so that we would need to communicate and grow in our attunement to each other. Absolutely. And responsiveness. And each of us, you know, really like, um. Have to be aware of our own experience and simultaneously aware of the other's experience. Absolutely. And enter into a shared experience together. Mm-hmm. In which both husband and wife are honored and find joy and connection. Mm-hmm. So part of that involves the men. Again, having self-control and mastery. Mm-hmm. Right. Slowing down a bit, even when slow down and, and instincts might be urging onwards. That's right. Again, it's not the sprint, it's a process. Mm-hmm. It's an enjoyable, um, prolonged experience. Mm-hmm. Can be. Um, and there are some specific techniques for how to do that. Like, uh, there's a technique of edging where you can mm-hmm. Intentionally cool down. So I, this is another thing I think that some men or couples might not realize that it's actually okay to not press forward like instantly. Immediately. Well, I think some, right? Like it's okay if you get very aroused to then intentionally like cool down a little bit. Mm-hmm. It's okay to penetrate. And then withdraw if you intend. If you intend to penetrate again and you know, finally have climax, culminate the act climax. Mm-hmm. While united exactly as it should be. But until then, it's absolutely fine to penetrate and then withdraw maybe. Hmm. Try a different position, penetrate again. Right. And, and to like intentionally control yourself through not allowing yourself to lose control or, or come to climax before you were ready. As a couple to experience that, I have a actually question that just came to me from one of my new students, um, who is somewhat newlywed and they, um, found each other, um, you know, not in their twenties, but they're a bit. Uh, further on mm-hmm. In life. Um, and there is a concern that like if the husband loses his, uh, I'm just gonna say it, erection. Ect, yeah. Then like, like they want to be sure to do it while he still got it. So what would you say about that? I haven't responded yet to her by email, but I've been thinking about this. Well, yeah, I don't, um, one is, it's not uncommon. Uh, during this process for a man to have an erection and then during those times of cooling down. He might lose the erection or it might get soft. Mm-hmm. And then it can, you know, come back. Right. Like, that's actually normal. That's what I was gonna respond to her and tell, like, all it takes is just a little more foreplay when you're ready to, you know, get things going again. Yeah, that's, that's totally fine. If there's something else happening, like a medical, a medical or a physical thing or. Or possibly mental, some mental or mental health things like anxiety, like performance anxiety. Exactly. So there, there might be other issues there as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just, I think anxiety is such a libido killer and we, you know, we can get so serious and worried about love making, but just to have some humility, a little sense of humor. And be willing for things to go imperfectly in the name of, we're just gonna be trying and exploring and discovering like that's so important. Like having a sense of adventure. Mm-hmm. And of humor and fun. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that's another thing that's really important that I should talk about more is sex can have a lot of different moods. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not always. Like you might see on the movies, right? Mm-hmm. Where it's just this intense, incredible passion or romantic. It could be like, yeah, sometimes that's true, but sometimes maybe, maybe it's um, makeup sex, maybe I'm really sorry. Mm-hmm. For something. Or maybe you're both grieving'cause someone in the family died, but you are reaffirming your connection and commitment with each other. Mm-hmm. Even while like you just buried Absolutely. Grandma or something like that. I know. I hope that doesn't sound irreverent to people who are listening. Yeah. Yeah. But um. Uh, this deep, intimate, physical connection between husband and wife, there's more space in this connection for a wider range of emotion Yeah. Than we typically give it credit for. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Well, well said. Okay, so act two intercourse. Act two is intercourse up through climax for the husband. And wife. And wife. Okay. Yeah, because her, her climax can come before, or Darren or after his climax or all of the above. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. We're highly capable. That's right. You are. Um, okay, so then act three. So then act three is after glow. And I put this in specifically because it's important and there are some couples, some men, some maybe women too. They just. Like once it's done, they might just roll over or they might jump out of bed and have a, take a shower real fast or just leave the room, leave the room, whatever, fall asleep. But it's so important. You just experience this beautiful connection. It's important to bask in it for a little bit. Mm-hmm. This is another time to deeply connect mm-hmm. Emotionally and to sort of. Yeah. Like I said, bask in the glow of being together. Mm-hmm. And so don't roll over right away. Don't jump out of bed immediately. Um, take a few moments to cuddle with each other. Um, soak in the moments, express love, and, and tenderness, express love and tenderness. Talk some more. Mm-hmm. You can say, you can offer another prayer at this point. Or if you haven't prayed before, you said This could be a good time. God, please bless us. Now you can say thank you. God, thank you for our connection. Thank you for our marriage. Thank you for this time that we had together and this beautiful love making experience that we shared. And I'll say too, even if it wasn't, um, a perfect. Encounter or there were some, you know, frustrations. Mm-hmm. Or shall we say goals not met for the wife, um, or the husband. There is something that you can give thanks for Absolutely, because that was time you dedicated just to each other. You weren't, you know, hopefully distracted with anything else. This was just one-on-one time and there is a beauty to it. You can find. Something that was beautiful, that was pleasant, that was good, that was, you know, loving and give thanks for that, both to God and to each other. That's right. Yeah. So it's really important to, you know. Enjoy that time together as, as a couple afterwards. I love it. Well now let's let the curtains fall together. That's right. They're closing and this couple is off to sleep, hopefully. Um, and I love that. I love this idea of sex in three acts I'll say. That setting the stage, like preparing, like this is, I like the way you're extending the metaphor. Yes. Even further. Well, yeah. Oh, I have you like that metaphor. I've got more metaphors. Just hold on. Oh boy. Hold on Your seats because, yeah, because the leading up, the setting the stage, that's such an important part for women. Mm-hmm. To feel like their heart and mind and body are all aligned in a, in a receptive, open, playful. Way that's up for connection. Yeah. Um, the next metaphor I had, I thought of this the other day and I wanted to see what you think about this. Let's see what we can do with this metaphor. I love it. We're, we're gonna switch metaphors. Okay? Yeah. End scene on the, the sex and three acts. Right. And we're moving over. We're gonna take to this skies. With this one, I propose that men are helicopters and women are jet planes. What do you think about this? Because play it out for me. Okay. Um, I know there's a pre-flight check, but pretty simple to hop in a helicopter for the pilot and it can just take off straight up, boom, boom, it's up in the air, right? And it can do, um, a quick flight. Like there's a limited range a helicopter has, right? True. Um, but it doesn't need a runway. It can just go straight up. That's right. Straight up. Okay. Whereas a jet plane, you need a runway. You need to use that runway. Right? There's a lot of fuel and like, um. A lot of energy, maybe most of the energy, uh, is used in takeoff all. Yeah, that is true. Isn't it true That is right. Like once that baby's in the air Yeah. Then she's sort of soaring. Yeah. Okay. A long range. There are different capabilities here. Definitely different capabilities. Right. And a jet plane. It's an elegant, and I would say a beautiful aircraft. I like thinking about you as a jet plane. Oh, thank you. I didn't wanna get so personal, but, um Right. But she, that it can go far. Um, and I would say, you know, just like women are capable, they are built to be able to have multiple orgasms. That's true. Whereas because they have a shorter refractory period mm-hmm. Whereas the man's, um, refractory period is much longer. And so like he's, yep. But anyway, um, I also was thinking, what do you think about this part of the analogy, like the jet plane carries a lot. Oh, right. There's a greater capacity. For carrying others inside it. Whoa. I don't know. Is this feminine genius sort of like, you know, the woman is the one who has room for another feminine genius meets Boeing. Um, I, I don't know. I was just, I was mostly thinking about the runway and that this might help men to think about their wives that like, are we tending to the runway? You know, are we giving her enough space to take off? Right. Yeah. Because if he's just like, well, everyone should be a helicopter. We should just hop in and you know. And go and go. Then he might not understand like how to operate their aircraft. You gotta get into the jet plane. You got a taxi to the beginning of the runway. Right. That's like talking about the school registrations and the like Yep. Grocery list. Yep. And, and sometimes you're taxiing for quite a while. Sometimes you're texting for quite a while. That's a true fact. I also, okay, here's another part of this metaphor. Um, you know, when we're at the airport waiting to take our flight, we're at the gate and we're like looking out the windows. There's a lot happening to get that aircraft, that jet liner That's true. Ready to go. Like I see them, you know, they're fueling up. They're loading up the snacks. Getting the snacks. Exactly. This is all very important. And what there's other stuff too, like the cleaner, cleaner, cleaner are in there. I think John Dunn would be, would be proud of you. Oh, poet there. I think there's potential here. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Right. And so, I don't know. I've never really sat around and watched what prep a helicopter needs, but in the movies, probably less, you know, I don't think they need like the, the, um, catering cart to roll up to it and to like. You know, there's just a lot that happens. My helicopter needs a catering cart. I feel like a protein bar would do it. Like just bring a protein bar with you and then probably, right. You're good to go. But, um, anyway, I, I like it. That's just, do you think I like it. Think this analogy holds. Um, I, it's got, let's say it's got wings. Think it can fly. Try it out. It might fly. Try it out with your, um, okay. Your guys in the holy desires this fall and see if it resonates and, uh Okay. I'll, I'll come back Yeah. In a, in a few months and let you know. Review, let me know. Should work on that one more? Scrap it or, yeah, or give it what? Those little wing pins that the pilots give you. Yeah, for sure. Like, yeah. Okay. So how I'll trademark that one. Right. Oh boy. Okay, so if a husband is interested in joining Holy Desires this fall, this is October, early October. That's right. What is the process? What do they do? Or if they wanna get on your wait list and think about it for next March, yes or so? Absolutely. When you'll do it again. Okay. So. Uh, holy Desires is open through Friday, October 10th, officially. Oh. So that is, uh, a couple days from now. And that address is cana feast.com/holy Desires. And we'll put a link at the, in the show notes. Of course. Mm-hmm. I also have a free p. That anyone can download. I invite all of you husbands to grab a copy. It is called Three Secrets to Becoming the Lover of Your Wife's Dreams. Ooh, intriguing and it is. It does have three of the simplest and easiest, but. Most practical and effective tips from my full Holy Desires course distilled into A PDF for you. You can get that@canafeast.com slash holy desires dash three secrets, and we'll have that link as well. When you download that PDF, you'll also get on my list, and then of course, you'll be notified as soon as Holy Desires opens in the spring. Well, thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun. We talked about, uh, the stage, the skies and the whole journey that led you to start Holy Desires. That's right. I'm really thankful that you followed that call and that prompting. I was surprised to be honest, because when people would ask me, you know, women in my course or men who would find my email. For, for my delay and be like, what, what is there for men? I, I say, look, I only work with women. This is what God has called me to do. I don't know, my husband is definitely not interested, you know, in providing a parallel men's course. Right. Uh, so, you know, we'll just have to wait for God to call someone else. And that was like four years ago. Right. But then God worked, did hear a call and you are answering it. That's right. That's right. And that's powerful. This is really. Creating a lot of good, a beautiful ripple effect of good. So thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. Okay. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thank you all for listening. See you in the next episode. Bye.