My Delight with Sarah Bartel

A Sex Book for Catholic Women? with Mary Bruno

• Nathan Bartel

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Mary Bruno wrote Missing Pieces: Female Perspectives on Sex for Catholic Women in response to a lack of women's voices among the popular speakers and authors who are most well-known for bringing messages about theology of the body and Catholic teachings on sex and marriage.

The theology and teachings are beautiful and true, but they implicitly assume that sex will be pleasurable. 

What if it's painful, as up to 75% of women will experience at some point in their lives? 

What if they desire it more than their husbands do? 

What if they don't realize that there's skill to learn in this area, and incorrectly assume it will be amazing right off the bat, starting from the wedding night? 

These are some of the experiences Mary addresses in her book. Join Sarah and Mary in a fascinating discussion in an area that needs more attention!


Mary Bruno, Missing Pieces: Female Perspectives on Sex for Catholic Women, 2024. 

Find Mary on her website, marybruno.com

Follow her in IG @whitelotusblooming

MORE RESOURCES

Free Enhancing Marital Intimacy Guide for Catholic Women: 9 Skills for Body, Mind, and Spirit (for married and engaged women)

Do you want to know what is allowed for Catholics in the bedroom? The "What's Allowed List" answers 20+ questions about what is licit and illicit. ($10)

Model-free lingerie! Get 10% off with my affiliate link for Mentionables.


Sarah Bartel:

I'm so excited to have Mary Bruno today to discuss her wonderful book, missing Pieces, which highlights women's voices in Catholic sexuality. And uh, Mary is a speaker, author. Coach and a fertility awareness instructor with Creighton Model Fertility Care, and just a, a wonderful gift and resource. Thank you so much, Mary, for coming and speaking about this.

Mary Bruno:

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah Bartel:

So let's start with, who is this book for? Who, who was the audience you had in mind when you wrote missing pieces?

Mary Bruno:

Yeah, I mean, basically Catholic women. It's also for couples. So I think it would be really good for men to read because I think it would help them to understand the female perspective, but mainly Catholic women, I think specifically, uh, if you're a a, a young adult or, you know, twenties and beyond, especially engaged. But, but really for, for women who are, who've been married for a while, I could see it helping them as well.

Sarah Bartel:

Oh, definitely. Yeah. And um, so it's missing pieces, female perspectives on Sex for Catholic Women came out about a year and a half ago, may of 2024. And what would you say are some of the main contributions that inspired you to write? Like, what's the message this book. Gifts that you didn't Yeah. You weren't seen in any other Catholic books, right. On the Theology of Marriage or Sexuality.

Mary Bruno:

Yeah. Thanks for asking. Actually, I'll tell you what kind of gave me the idea to write this book, but first I'll give you a little context. Mm-hmm. So. I grew up in a wonderful Catholic home, you know, a cradle Catholic, and practiced the sacraments. Went to youth group for a while. I went to many Steubenville. I got all the great Catholic talks, you know, mainly focused on saving sex for marriage, which, which I did by the grace of God, you know, and so I looked forward to my wedding day. So much thinking like, you know, this is gonna be great, right? Because this is what we learned, that sex is gonna be good and, and easy really was the message that was received. However, on our wedding night, um, it didn't end up turning out so easy for me, and there was a lot of anxiety from the day. I felt pressure, not from a husband, just kind of like internal pressure that like this was the night that we were supposed to consummate our marriage. And that's great that it's just sort of like this expectation. Yeah, it's it's expected right in the culture, right. That works for some people. Wonderful. It doesn't work. All the time for everybody, but for, for whatever reason, you know, that's, that's what I felt that night. And so we, we went forward with it and I was, what I experienced was severe pain. Incredible pain to where, you know, it took us a little while to complete. And what I know now is that we should have stopped at that moment, but we didn't. Because I thought this was normal and I, I find this very interesting actually, as a Creighton practitioner who has spoken to many women before and after they have sex for the first time. This was my experience too, for those women who are uncomfortable or have pain during sex, is that whatever we experience, we just accept as normal. Wow. Does, does that make sense? Yeah. Because I don't think we, we don't hear what healthy sex in marriage should be like. Mm-hmm. So I think at least, I mean, I can speak only for myself as a woman, I thought it was normal, so I pushed through it and that started a, a, a very long and painful journey of painful intercourse throughout several years of marriage. Now, it did get better than that, like excruciating pain that we had that first time. But it never really went away until we've been married for 12 years now, and it wasn't until we were married for nine years that I even realized, oh, you know, because I started hearing these messages finally that sex shouldn't be painful. And this like took me, it took a, it a while to get through my skull because this is just what I knew as normal Uhhuh. And so my, you know, I started to, to wrap my mind around this and, and that's when the healing really began. To get to my point of after I started this healing journey, which, which is going on about three years now, but mainly within that first year, I was trying to understand how in the world did I get here?

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm. It

Mary Bruno:

was really one night I remember how did I get to this place as this devout Catholic who has, you know, had all the education, I've heard all the talks. I thought I heard the experiences, but I really, I really didn't. And, and that's when I realized that that. Really all of the talks on sexuality that I had heard were given by men, right? And these were great talks like these, these voices are absolutely needed. They do a wonderful job at talking about theology of the body and, and saving sex for marriage and, and. So I think those voices are good, but no matter how wonderful and holy these men are, they can't speak to the woman's experience of sex. And that's what I realized that this was missing. It was female voices that are missing. And that's what really encouraged me to, to write this book and title it this way so that yes, you know, we both need to hear from both sexes, right? Because sex is about complementarity, marriage is about complementarity. God is wholeness. He's the perfect combination of both male and female. And so that's what we're seeking to. Approach, so to speak in marriage is, is that blend of male and female. So, and that's what the catechism talks a lot about. I love going Yes, and reading what the catechism says about human sexuality and marriage and that's what we're aiming for. So I hope that book, that this book, missing Pieces, provides. On that missing piece.

Sarah Bartel:

Yes, yes, absolutely. And they are so good. These, these popularizer of theology, the body and of the church's true and good teaching on sexuality, that you know, it's reserved for marriage and that there's a holy purpose to it in marriage, the unity as well as appropriate function. And this helps us get a glimpse of the communion of the persons of the Trinity and all that is true. And it's also at the. Theoretical, like abstract level and kind of in sort of woven into the language about like, you know, the beauty of sex gives us a glimpse of the beauty of God's love. We're like, okay, so sex is just this beautiful, we're gonna wait till marriage, and then it's gonna be beautiful and great and good. And the truth of the matter is that pain during intercourse is not normal, but it is very common for women. It is also something that occurs for men sometimes, but not nearly as often, so it wouldn't even occur to a male, you know? Voice, uh, popularizing the church's true message to like, put in some language there, you know, about like, and also, you know, user experience may vary here. You know, you might have to go through some human level, um, you know, practical skill development and maybe even therapy, you know, therapy to get to this place where it feels beautiful.

Mary Bruno:

Yes. Yeah, it takes, it takes hard work, and that's across the spectrum. I mean, whether you're having pain with intercourse or not, a good sexual, a healthy sexual relationship takes work from both people. Now, it does come more naturally, I think, to some people than others, but there's also two dimensions. There's the physical dimension, which people. Could have an easy job at or are difficult, but also the emotional part. Yeah. Where we're called to unite each other, unite ourselves to each other fully. So you can have a great physical experience, but but maybe struggle with that emotional unity. And so it, it takes work, it takes ongoing work throughout the entire course of our lives and marriage. And it takes work individually. And together.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm. I

Mary Bruno:

think a, something that a lot of people might miss is that like healing, working on healing our own wounds individually can really help to improve our sexual intimacy. Um, I just, I love to talk about how sex starts outside of the bedroom, right? Yeah. With how we love each other. It starts with each interaction every day, and I just think that piece gets missed, you know? Mm-hmm.

Sarah Bartel:

Oh, absolutely. Right. It's the necessary foundation and it really, like you can't use physical intimacy to replace emotional intimacy. It really works the other way. Just like in the mass where God, um. He reaches out to us with words and we respond to him in the liturgy of the word, and that precedes the physical communion that happens in the liturgy of the Eucharist. You know, he lays that foundation of speaking to us. Yeah. Yeah. Well. I really love that you highlighted women's voices and shared messages such as, yeah, sex shouldn't be painful in your book. And um, I'm really thankful also you invited me to contribute to the book, so I was able to share a little section there. Yes. Because another piece that's missing from sort of the cultural and I would say church circles, conversations. Sexuality are that you could have a couple, a husband, wife, couple, in which it's the wife who has the higher spontaneous libido. All the jokes, all the, the talks, the memes, you know, they really assume a stereotypical husband has higher spontaneous libidos scenario. Where, um, you know, the wife's like basically fending off her husband, right? And, and at least 20, maybe 25% or more of the cases. That's not true. And so I was really thankful you invited me to speak to that because there's not a whole lot out there as far as guidance or even acknowledgement about, you know, you, you may get married and find that. Your husband's not as interested off the bat as you are at any given time. Absolutely.

Mary Bruno:

Yeah. Yeah. It's about all the missing pieces, not just mine. Yeah. You know, I'm so glad you shared,'cause it helps gimme some perspective into the other side of things. Like who my husband who has the higher libido, like it helps me to understand him better too.

Sarah Bartel:

What are some other like. Just parts of the book that you're so proud of or messages that you just want every Catholic woman to know?

Mary Bruno:

Oh, I'm so glad you asked because I think something that we hear a lot in Catholic circles is this idea that, you know. We don't talk a lot about sex in marriage in our Catholic circles, but when it is talked about, at least from my per perspective, it's often like instructing women not to say no to their husbands. Oh, right. Marital debt. This is the marital debt that we have this obligation that out of this sacrificial love. Right. And looking at it from, from my perspective. If, if I'm honest, it, it really frustrates me because that's how I went into intercourse thinking like, here I am experiencing this pain, normalizing it for myself, which is actually in my situation, creating a, a sexual trauma because I wanted my husband to enjoy sex. I. There were times when I forced myself to do it in the name of so, so-called sacrificial love. Mm-hmm. What I realized after I started to heal is that this is not sacrificial love at all. It's actually denying my own need. So we have to be really careful about what we're instructing anyone to do.'cause this could come from either side, the man or the woman. It's not, it's not always just, you know, the woman. But, um, so I think understanding this is vital. So I write in the book, this is my favorite chapter, I think it's chapter four. It's called Sacrificial Love versus Denying Actual Needs. And I'll read some of it to you. It says, I am called to be selfless and put others before myself, but I am also called to take care of myself. I am not called to sacrifice my own wellbeing for any act that requires my wellbeing in order to be sufficient and meaningful and good holy sex requires the wellbeing of two people, anything less, thwarts the purposes of sex and makes a spouse an object of use. And I quote here a little bit further in the next paragraph, catechism 2264 says, love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore, it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. So sacrificing our own physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing to engage in intercourse for our spouse is not selfless. It's actually self abandonment. It, and that's not what we're called to because God desires us to love ourselves well. Right. Wow. Yes. So I, I just think it's kind of like we just need to open our eyes a little bit, take a step back and really look at it for what it is. Because saying no to sex can actually be the more loving option. Sometimes saying yes to sex is the more loving option. But also I think it helped me to understand that sex itself should never be a sacrifice. The act itself should not be the sacrifice. Now, sacrificial love should take place, but that part of it should always be outside the act of intercourse. Mm-hmm. So in our example. That meant me going to therapy, uh, continuing to pursue my husband and physical affection when we couldn't have sex.'cause I was healing physically. Yeah.

Sarah Bartel:

Non-sexual, physical affection. Yeah.

Mary Bruno:

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Non-sexual touch. And, you know, when, when sex was resumed, when I started to heal, you know, my libido still working on my low libido, sometimes that means, you know, tr you know, working on my engaging in the response of libido and, and initiating a little bit more than I might like to. Mm-hmm. You know, but, but all of that. Again, the, those are the sacrifices that take place outside of the act itself. Does that make sense?

Sarah Bartel:

Yes. Oh, absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up, because this just brings a lot of harm to women and it does not serve marriage well. Right? When the, there's this idea that, um, yeah, the wife's going to suffer. So that the husband can get his quote needs met. It's not the need, first of all, and this is not the point of sex. It's supposed to be uni bonding, a celebration of your love, a renewal of your sacrament, a renewal of your marriage vows. It should be an expression of love, and that should be. Loving, not hurtful. It should not be hurtful. That should not be painful. I'm really glad. Um, you mentioned the, the idea of obligation as well, and I just want to point back to a previous podcast episode that I recorded and published. It's entitled, marital Debt is Not Church Teaching. It's from July 23rd, 2025. So there I dive into further detail, debunking, explaining properly. You know what the church actually teaches about the mutuality of, um, sex and marriage and the fact that, you know, the church does not say the man's pleasure is most important. The church does not say like, the man should be really getting a lot of physical satisfaction from this, and it doesn't matter if the wife gets anything or is, is in pain. That is nowhere in church teaching. I don't know why so many marriages operate that way, but it's, it's really, it's really sad and dismay. But truly what the church does say is that spouses like God made sex to be the generative function to be, um, pleasurable, and spouses do nothing wrong to seek that pleasure. Amen. It doesn't distinguish men or women. It's assuming you know that this is a good for both, but yeah, really important when we change that mindset. What would you say, based off of your experience and just the healing you've been through now, what would you say to a woman who realizes, wow, I guess I have been having painful sex and thinking it was just an obligation. What do I do now? What should her next move

Mary Bruno:

be? Oh, yeah, it's so tough and I would say be generous with yourself and patient with yourself, because there's a lot to unpack there. This was very difficult for me to realize what I had put myself and my body through for so long, and it was sad, and I think it was something that I had to grieve. And it was something that I had to wonder, like how, again, how did I get here? And, and I noticed through, through prayer, just thinking and through talking with my pelvic floor physical therapist, talking to some friends, trusted in the space that there were a few different reasons. That I got here. Some of it was, you know, a history of painful cramps with endometriosis. Some of it was previous abuse and some of it was family of origin. Some of it was impurity in high school. You know, so there's a lot of different things that can cause this physically, but also mentally and emotionally. So give yourself some grace here and some time to really like absorb and process all of this. Counseling. I was already in counseling, so that was really helpful. Oh, great. I would say definitely, um, insight, CBT co cognitive behavioral Therapy, I think is, is, is, is really needed in this situation, has been very helpful for me to unpack and process some of this and just talk to somebody, nonjudgmentally who could listen to me. Um, also something that was really important for me was pelvic floor physical therapy. So finding one that I trust who is qualified to treat. Painful intercourse or sexual dysfunction in that way was really helpful to me. And I was nervous at first, but I think most, any pelvic floor PT I've talked to has been really receptive and, and allowed me to feel free and safe in that space. I think they're really good at doing that, you know, and, and talking to friends too has been really helpful. And obviously my husband having a lot of difficult conversations with my husband, um, is really. One of the biggest things that has led us to some healing.

Sarah Bartel:

Wow. Would you say? Okay.'cause you experienced excruciating pain. Mm-hmm. But then also to have the conversations that were necessary to change the cycle of what had been going on. Because I, I think you shared with me before, like you had been hiding it from your husband, right? Right. He wasn't aware that you were in pain. Right. Right. This is probably a big shocker to him.

Mary Bruno:

Yeah. No, no. The first time he was aware there, that was obvious, but we both thought it was normal. It wasn't just me. I should mention that, that thought that, you know, that, that sex hurt, sex hurts for the first time. That's what we hear, that it hurts for the first time. So we both just thought that was normal. But as, like I said, it did get a little bit better, but it never really went away. That was the part that I tried my best to hide from him. And that confused me a lot when I realized that this was what was happening. And, um, it took, it took a lot of time, uh, for me, again, to heal and to. To really wrestle with that.'cause I realized I had been lying to him for so long. What I thought was good, sacrificial love, I was actually lying to myself or to my husband. You're hiding your true fault. I was hiding myself. How? Right? How could I fully give myself to him if I couldn't be fully present? It really didn't make any sense. Um, so, so yeah, so I hid it from him. So that made it hard for him to understand what I was going through. And when I finally got diagnosed with Vaginismus through Pelvic four pt, I was so excited to have this answer, right?'cause I came home like this Uhhuh, I didn't mention that. You know, it, it caused some tension in our marriage because our libidos were so mismatched. It was understandable. Now why I didn't wanna have sex? Because sex equaled pain for me. Even if I didn't consciously make that connection. My body registered sex as pain, so why would anybody wanna do something that's painful? You know? So I just, I hope that relieves any of you listening who experience this pain that it makes sense if your libido is low. Um, so yeah, I was kinda shocked that, um. When I shared this with him, he was confused and it, and it took us a lot of difficult conversations for it to even come out that like, well wait a minute, because, um, it seemed like I was enjoying it. Um, and there were parts of it that I did enjoy, you know? Um, but that didn't mean that penetration was comfortable.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Mary Bruno:

So that, that was, it took. You know, being okay with having those uncomfortable conversations and having some fights, you know, because it was through those, those became doorways to intimacy. Wow. You know, to be willing to say the difficult things and to listen to some difficult things. That's, that's how we moved and grew. That's right. And now we continue to,

Sarah Bartel:

yeah, that's what's so important is your tolerance. You yourself, as the wife, and then you too as a couple, your tolerance for those difficult conversations. I was just thinking like what was more painful? The painful intercourse or the the difficult conversations. I bet they were both right. You know? Absolutely.

Mary Bruno:

No, they both are. So difficult, and I think I mentioned to you before too, that like I had to learn to speak up for myself. That was something that as a people pleaser, you know, it's, it's really hard to say, no, I need to stop. This hurts. And so that's something I need to learn during, you know, as I was healing and sex was still kind of hurting when we did resume it again to. To stop in the middle, and that's just really hard as someone who wants to enjoy and get, you know, enter into sex as a normal couple would, you know?

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. Well, and then of course with the people pleasing that so many of us have, right? Then you're like, wow, I can't do this thing I'm, I think I'm supposed to do to please my husband. Like I have to be the one to say, stop. It's not working, I'm hurting. Like you have to believe you matter. Exactly, and then you have to use your voice and then you have to be able to sacrifice the, like, the pride that comes from people pleasing.

Mary Bruno:

Mm-hmm. Mm. I know. And that's something that therapy helps a lot with. I think the pelvic, the pelvic floor PT and the counseling really go hand in hand.

Sarah Bartel:

I love that, that you had the physical and emotional support. Yeah. In the form of professional support there.

Mary Bruno:

Right.

Sarah Bartel:

What about at the spiritual level? I noticed and just the whole time I've known you and our friendship and, you know, um, as colleagues in this, this space here, like your faith is so strong and rock solid. Was there a wobble as you came to grips with your experience here? Mm-hmm. Or were you always like, I still believe the church's teachings are true. It's just the way it. Something didn't quite, you know, speak to my specific experience.

Mary Bruno:

Yeah. To be honest, I, I think be to God by the grace of God. I never had that experience with my sexual issues, and I think it's because I did wobble with my infertility issues, but that came first. Oh, okay. So you already through that. So I, I hit rock bottom through that experience and I learned so much from it. Like what, what beauty and light. God can bring out of such dark places. I promised myself during infertility, like when I got over that hump, when he brought me through it.'cause I did question his existence. Oh man. But, but like I wanted to remember that experience'cause I know I'm gonna have sufferings of all kinds in marriage and in life, not just a marriage. And so I think getting through infertility really helped to prepare me for that. So, um. No, I mean, it, it was hard, but I never questioned my faith in God. Like, like it was just interesting and I saw it as a blessing. The timing that all of this was revealed was about a year after I had my hysterectomy. And so I thought God was generous in like, giving me the time I needed to grieve my infertility. And then once I, I got past that and I, I had the, the, the space, so to speak, to focus on this next thing that he wanted to heal me. Oh, you know, he was bringing all of this forward, out of love for me and my marriage to make it better. It was, it was broken. We were broken, like, you know, and not in, not that we couldn't be fixed, but like there was just a lot that needed healing and, and how beautiful that he was willing to do that for us.

Sarah Bartel:

That is really beautiful. Such a gift and wow, how special that difficult, hard as it was going through the infertility dark night of the soul. Right? Right. They prepare you to equip you to handle this and keep your faith strong as well. I wanna go back to wedding night. Mary, what do you wish you had heard to prepare you? For, yeah. To, to a do over if you could do it over. Or if you had like a, a cousin or little sister and she was asking you for advice about, you know, she's heading into her wedding night and she had the same upbringing as you, same values, heard all the same talks you'd heard. She's asking, what do I need to know?

Mary Bruno:

Absolutely, let's remove the pressure off the wedding night. Like it might be something that works and that's great, but, but that, it doesn't have to happen that night, right? There's a lot that goes on that day. It's, it's, it's a beautiful, wonderful day, and as perfect as it can be, it's still a lot on our nervous systems. And then. We all, like again, I had built sex up in my mind so much that it was gonna be this thing that, that I put that pressure on myself that our wedding night, like I can't wait. And it's true that I, I was very excited to be able to unite with my, my spouse, but, but that night, it just wasn't the best thing for us. But I, there was not, there was no permission in my no permission structure in my brain that would've allowed me to, to skip that night and wait. Just take the time to wait. There was no permission structure in my head telling me that if it's painful, I can stop. Yeah. There was none of that. Mm-hmm. That I wish somebody had said no. The first time's not supposed to be painful. Mm-hmm. I wish somebody had told me that and it's never supposed to be painful.

Sarah Bartel:

Supposed to be, and I

Mary Bruno:

wish I had gone to pelvic floor PT before my wedding night so that she could have examined me.'cause she could have told me before then that I would've had pain and we could have been working on it beforehand. Yes. So just some basic. Tips. This is what we need as women. This, there's more than just saving sex for marriage. It's what does healthy sex look like within marriage?

Sarah Bartel:

Yes. Yes. And you matter wives, your voice matters. Yes. The regulation of your nervous system really matters how well, a hundred

Mary Bruno:

percent. Yes.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. Yeah. And it is a big, I know, I, I try to share that message a lot as well, that, yeah. I'm gonna. Big day when you're depleted, it's, it's exciting and buzzy the day of your wedding, but it is a big tax on your ER nervous system. Mm-hmm. And in order for sex to go well, it, we need a nervous system. Soothed and regulated.

Mary Bruno:

Relaxed and regulated. Absolutely. Exactly.

Sarah Bartel:

So give it a day or two or three or more and get nice and comfortable after the wedding, before diving.

Mary Bruno:

Yeah. It's all about what you need. What do you need individually? Yeah. What does your marriage need, you know?

Sarah Bartel:

Mary, where can listeners go to find out more about you and your work?

Mary Bruno:

Uh, so you can go to my website, mary g bruno.com and there are, there's a link to all my books there, which you can find on Amazon.

Sarah Bartel:

Great. Oh, well, I will put that in the show notes and also obviously a link to this wonderful book. Thank you so much, Mary, for using IOR voice. You're such a blessing. God bless. Thanks,

Mary Bruno:

Sarah. You too.

Sarah Bartel:

Great. Thank you Mary. I really appreciate it. It's always such a joy to talk with you. Um,

Mary Bruno:

same to you. This was just an awesome conversation. I love being able to have these conversations with you. It's been great. Aw, well

Sarah Bartel:

thank you. Have a great rest of your night. Take care, God. You too. You too.

Bye. Bye.