My Delight with Sarah Bartel

What is Sexual Coercion? with Jenny DuBay

• Nathan Bartel

Share episode

Making you feel guilty for saying "no."

Wearing you down with asking over and over.

You just want to get some sleep... the babies will be up at 5 am, so you just give in to get it over with.

...These are all examples of sexual coercion, which is a form of emotional abuse. 

Sarah is joined by Jenny DuBay, a certified trauma-informed Catholic coach, certified deconstructing gaslighting specialist, and certified narcissistic abuse specialist to talk about sexual coercion in marriage and the importance of consent to sex in Catholic marriage.

Just because you're married doesn't mean you have to be constantly sexually available. 

That's not the teaching of the Catholic Church, and Jenny uses her theology degree and deep knowledge of TOB and Church teaching to dive into this topic.

Listen in if you want to hear about the many different forms sexual coercion can take in Catholic marriage... and what to do about it.


Get Jenny's DuBay's book Don't Plant Your Seeds Among Thorns: A Catholic's Guide to Recognizing and Healing from Domestic Abuse (EnRoute Books and Media, 2024)

Learn more about Jenny at

https://www.jennydubay.com

and learn more about healthy relationships in the articles on her SubStack at:

https://www.createsoulspace.org/





MORE RESOURCES

Free Enhancing Marital Intimacy Guide for Catholic Women: 9 Skills for Body, Mind, and Spirit (for married and engaged women)

Do you want to know what is allowed for Catholics in the bedroom? The "What's Allowed List" answers 20+ questions about what is licit and illicit. ($10)

Model-free lingerie! Get 10% off with my affiliate link for Mentionables.


Sarah Bartel:

I am so thankful to have a really special guest today to talk with me. I am welcoming Jenny Dube, who's the author of two books and dozens of articles. She's a certified trauma-informed Christian coach, a certified Deconstructing gaslighting specialist. A certified narcissist narcissistic abuse specialist, and she earned her BA in Catholic Theology from Holy Apostles College and Seminary in Catholic Distance University. And Jenny is here to talk with me about sexual coercion in marriage, a topic that we both think should receive a lot more awareness in Catholic circles. So thank you so much, Jenny, for joining me. Oh, thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here. Let's just start by talking about what is sexual coercion. I think that a lot of women in Catholic marriages who are experiencing it may not have the language, the framework, to understand exactly what it is and that, you know, like we talked about a little bit before recording, they might know something is off. But not be able to identify that that's what's happening. So can you just fill out for us, just, um, yeah. More of an explanation of what sexual coercion is.

Jenny DuBay:

Well, sexual coercion, it can take many different forms and look, you know, different depending on the situation. But basically it is forcing your partner to be intimate with you, to have sex with you, um, when you don't want to. Mm-hmm. And you make it clear that there is a legitimate reason. It's not like, oh, I don't, it's, you know, you, whether it be emotional exhaustion, physical exhaustion, whatever the case may be, now is not the time to come together as husband and wife.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. Uh,

Jenny DuBay:

but when you. Say, no, honey. Sorry, I don't, not right Now. There is some sort of coercion that eventually you give in and say yes,

Sarah Bartel:

because they're just wearing you down, right? It's not necessarily just physically like forcing you physically, it's the right, the repeated request, the arguing about it, the right like, um, sort of emotional backlash. So

Jenny DuBay:

again, like I said, it can take many forms so it can take just that wearing you down. Okay. Pestering you keep not taking no for an answer and keep insisting. And then a lot of times women will just be like, you know, I just want, I need to get to sleep. You know, the babies are gonna be up at 5:00 AM I really need to sleep, so I'm just gonna give in. So that I can get some sleep that's coercion that, you know, or, um, made to feel guilty, oh, you don't love me, or you think I'm ugly, or you, so that, um, victim playing the victim and making them, you know, put, because as women we're tender, we're empathetic. We, we don't wanna hurt our spouse. So that really works, like playing on our heart strings, right. Um. But that's still a form of coercion because sexual intimacy should, intimacy should be just, that should be an intimate union of mutual self-giving. Yeah. There shouldn't be any force to it. There shouldn't be. You know, so when things feel off, listen to that. You know, that's what I always tell the ladies that come to me for coaching. Like, if it feels off, listen to that. Why, what's going on? And, and really see it for what it is.'cause it's really important.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. And I was reading definitions online of sexual coercion and saw that it also included unwanted sexual touch. Mm-hmm. Uh, so not necessarily, you know, full out penetrative intercourse, but any sort of touch that's sexual that you don't want. And a realized that this could be happening a lot during, um, the absence phase of NFP when couples have decided to abstain from intercourse and. So that's a no. Um, a lot of wives share with me that, you know, their husbands are touching them in ways that are sexual. You know, it's, it's sort of intercourse, but, you know, they, they don't like this, they don't want to, you know, it's questionable in their mind, like, are we really on the right side of the moral law here? And, uh, or their sexual frustration, you know, for one or both of them, it just, because it's not gonna lead to full intercourse. Um, and so they. Don't really want that kind of sexual touch, you know, touching sexual organs or breasts in certain ways. Um. But they feel like, you know, their husband's pestering again, pestering, arguing, trying to convince will be pouty or withdraw if she doesn't give in. And that this also is a form of sexual coercion. What are your thoughts on that? Would you agree or would you add more nuance or, um, yeah, I

Jenny DuBay:

would agree. I, I would just add, you know, as long as it, it's made clear between the couple, the couple talk about this and say, okay, during this time. I don't, I don't feel comfortable with this, you know? And when you express to your spouse, I don't feel comfortable with this, that should be respected. Yes. And so, you know, if it's clear to the, your husband, this is not appro, it doesn't feel appropriate to me, or it just doesn't feel good, or it's not what I want, and still there's that persistence. Mm-hmm. There's not, again, it's that, you know, not taking no for an answer and it can be very, um, covert and very subtle and that's what can be so confusing. Again, if you've made yourself clear in a loving, gentle way and it's still, that boundary is still being violated. Yeah, there's a problem there. That is sexual coercion.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. And. I'm learning also that sexual coercion is a form of domestic abuse. Can you share more about that?

Jenny DuBay:

Well, domestic abuse basically is, it is coercion and a power and control is what it's about. Mm-hmm. And, and again, and abuse is, it's a pattern of behavior. So. If this happens once in your relationship and then your husband is like, oh gosh, I'm sorry. I really just overstepped my boundaries. That okay, that, you know, wasn't inappropriate behavior, but that was not considered, you know, a prolonged abusive situation. But if this keeps happening again and again, um, basically that means that the husband is trying to exert control over. The wife and control is an abusive behavior. Mm-hmm. So that's why it is domestic abuse and it's also for those women who are in emotionally, especially emotionally and psychologically abusive or any abusive, um, marriage. There's, I think the statistic is like 40 to 45% are also being sexually coerced. I think it's higher than that based on who those that I have talked to. Um, but they kind of, that. Abusive relationship and the sexual component of it kind of go together so often.

Sarah Bartel:

That's so difficult. Um, you know, I work with women who want to increase their pleasure, their joy, their, you know, liking, love making, and I'm realizing more and more, a lot of reasons, a lot of the time a wife is not enjoying her sexual relationship with her husband. This could be the dynamic that's going on, you know? And so if her no is not being respected, if she's being pestered, guilted, um, you know, um. Pouted at right then this, this area of sexual intimacy just becomes so fraught and she doesn't like it, and it's, it's really working counter to what the husband says he wants, which is, you know, delightful connection with his wife. But it's, it's really sabotaging that, um,

Jenny DuBay:

absolutely. You know, the, the whole, you know, being. Sexual with your spouse requires a sense of safety. If you don't have safety, there isn't gonna be that enjoyment because again, it's just this mutual bond it's supposed to be. And if you don't feel safe, like you're being coerced, let's say. Mm-hmm. So obviously you don't feel safe during the times you're being coerced, but it bleeds over. So if there's situations where you're not being coerced and you want to find that joy and that pleasure in the sexual union. But still that sense of safety isn't there because of that underlying coerciveness that sometimes happens. And it's, it really, yeah, you're right. It, it's counterintuitive. It just acts the opposite of what should be going on in their relationship, and it definitely does interfere with normal sexual relationship with your spouse.

Sarah Bartel:

Need, feel that safety and that freedom. So, um, Jenny, what is your best advice for a woman who realizes, oh my gosh, that's my situation. What does she need to do? What, um, what actions can she take or Yeah, how can she go forward in a more positive, healthy way?

Jenny DuBay:

You know, and that really, um. Of course, it depends on the situation and always like if there's an abusive dynamic, I have to consider safety. Um mm-hmm. But being insistent once you educate yourself, okay, this is coercion and I don't have to give in. I don't have to let my body be used because that's what you know. Coercion is in love and responsibility. St. Pope John Ball II talks about use versus love, and that's basically coercion is all about use. Let me use this body for my own means. Right, because I want to reach orgasm. That's not love. And so just realizing that, you know, educating, realizing what a true marital union should be. You know, in, in my book, I, I don't Plant Your Seeds Among Thorns, which is a Catholic guide to domestic abuse. I mentioned, um, theology of the Body because one of the best ways to educate yourself is to educate yourself on what your marriage should be. Yeah, and then you can see, whoa, you know, this, this is, this is not mine. If you're, you know, if there's coercion there. So educating oneself and that empower, empowers you just to continue to say no. Even if you know, to set up that boundary and say, this is a firm boundary and I am going to stick with it. You know, empowering yourself to be able to be to. To give yourself permission. So a lot of women too, think, well, it's wrong. Mm-hmm. It's wrong for me to say no because I am the wife I'm supposed to. And sometimes there's spiritual abuse going on. So, um, some verses of the Bible, such as First Corinthians seven, three through five will be thrown at thrown at them. Um, piecemeal though, like, you know, wives, your bodies aren't your own.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Jenny DuBay:

Just that part of this verse, not Yeah. Proof texting, right? Mm-hmm. Um. They'll be misinformed that, okay, well I really, I shouldn't say no, and maybe even told it's a sin by the spouse or maybe even by people in the church. You know? It's so, again, educating oneself to realize, no, this is not a sin. Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Paul says that even before in, in First Corinthians, but before he talks about that mutual self-giving, so. Educating and being, learning about boundaries and just being firm and being like, I'm not gonna let myself be used because my body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. And just, I'm always telling my ladies, just repeat that. You know? Create that neural pathway in your brain of what your sacred body is and what it's designed for. Very good love

Sarah Bartel:

and not use. Yes. Oh, very good. Just to have that confidence and awareness. And here's what I think it would be really helpful if we have a, a discussion about consent and consent in Catholic marriage. Like not just the consent of the vows, like I do, you know, the, um, the exchange of consent that happens at our wedding, but the importance of, um, a green. To have sex and that that has moral value and that this is in our church's teaching that, you know, yeah, that's important for a lovemaking act to be morally valid, you know, to be morally good. The husband and wife both need to be free. They both need to give their consent, you know, without it being coerced. Um, what are your thoughts here, Jenny? About this topic, because that's how I found you.'cause you, you wrote some articles. Thanks be to God, uh, highlighting this that I found on, um, yeah. Online. And so I'm really glad that you're able to, to speak to this issue

Jenny DuBay:

well, and just remembering if there isn't mutual consent, it's not love making.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Jenny DuBay:

You know, it's not intimacy really, because intimacy requires vulnerability. We're giving your vulnerability as a gift to another. So if you're being coerced, you're being used. Again, it's, it's a use and it's, it is a lust, you know, and, and theology of the body. John Paul II dives into Jesus' teaching about, you know, lust with the eyes, you know, you can even lust after your own wife, even just by looking at her and thinking lustful thoughts versus thoughts of love and wanting to join together in a loving embrace. So. Yeah. Just again, keeping in mind that the true teachings of the church, which are so beautiful, um, does help us to just embrace what we deserve in a marriage, and that is that mutual consent. I mean that and the, and for a marriage to be a valid sacrament at the moment of, I do. That's one of the requirements. Consent, you know, you have to be free to consent and, and you know, spilling over into, once the marriage is, the marriage vows have taken place. You're not giving your consent when you, there's a confusion. There's this gray area because women will say, well, I said yes. So I did give my consent. Well, if you said yes, after saying no 10 times, 20 times, however many times, that wasn't a real Yes. That was a, let's just skip this over so you can stop bugging me. That's coerced. Right. You know, so it's that a lot of women will blame themselves too by saying that. Well, I said yes, and he reminded me. I said, yeah, well that's not a free Yes, that's a forced,

Sarah Bartel:

yes. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. The badgering and the not hearing your No. You know, true love is willing, the good of the beloved. So if a husband is truly showing love to his wife, right, he will show her respect and listen to that. No, and yeah, not try to coerce or force here. I think that there's a lot of confusion in certain Catholic circles about this. Area of obligation. Um, you wrote in one of your articles, uh, which is titled Sexual Coercion, sacramental Marriage, and the Alarm Clock Method, which is on pathos.com. Um, really, really thankful that you wrote this, but, um. You mentioned the, uh, the obligation sex mentality that, um, yeah. A husband or, you know, my wife might actually believe too that it's the wife's rightful obligation as wife to satisfy all the husband's sexual needs whenever and however he demands it. Um, and I've come to find out in certain Catholic circles, especially, you know, some more, um. Uh, some of the Latin mass communities, also just some, you know, Novus, ordo communities, that there is this incorrect belief that it, it is a sin for the wife to decline her husband's sexual requests. Um, have you encountered this as well? What, what are your thoughts here and Yeah. How would you respond to that?

Jenny DuBay:

Well, and, and that really goes to. Misinterpreting scripture. Yes. No. So taking, like I said, the first Corinthians seven verses, um, first Corinthians 11, I can't remember. 11 three, something like that. The, the, the man is the head of the wife and um, of course Ephesians and taking those all out of context and not really realizing and using them as a weapon that's weaponizing scripture, which is just so evil. Um, and not really realizing what those, um. Versus actually mean and how radical they were. Like if you take one Corinthians seven, for example, um, Paul was writing to a Greek community where it was the belief that, well, a wife was a few steps above servants and children, but not much. She was more property. And additionally, um, a man, it was fine if a man had an adulterous affair that was just looked away, that's okay. But a woman could not. And so St. Paul is writing to that community, so we have to keep that in mind, you know, and then he says. That the wife's body is not her own it, it's her husband's. And the husband's body is not his own. It's his, the wife's. And that they should come together. Just the, just them. So basically he's saying no adultery is wrong. For the man as well as for the woman. And the man's body belongs equally to the woman. And this is not a power over. This is equality, again, mutual self-giving. But when you read that outta context and then you say, okay, the, the woman should be the head of the man, interpreting head not being the woman should. The, the man is the head of the household and the woman is the heart. There's, there is an equality there without a head. You can't, the body can't survive without a heart. The body can't survive, you know? But it's. Taking it as the man is the head of the household, that means he's superior. That means she has to do it. No, that's the absolute opposite of what Paul was saying. Um, and again, that's the belief of the Greco-Roman world and he was turning that completely on its head. So you know, those who take those scriptures and weaponize them are abusing not only. Their wives, if it's the husband or if it's in a church community, their parishioners or whatever it may be. But they're also abusing scripture. Think about that. Think about how horrible that is. Oh, but they are. That is an abusive scripture to take some something out of context and twist it to what you want it to say so that you can have power over somebody else. That's horrible.

Sarah Bartel:

Wow. Oh, that, I'd never put it in so many words, but that is abusive scripture. That's really powerful to reflect on and. Shows the, um, the twistedness all the more, you know how Yeah. It's definitely not God's plan at all. And I think when wives start to understand that they can feel, on one sense, they can feel more of a sense of relief. Like, oh, okay, so it's okay for me to say No, it's okay. I'm within my, my rights to decline. Um, husbands love making advances when I'm really not interested. Really not in the mood, you know, and I, you know, I love him, but just not interested in sex right now. Um, but then they may also feel stuck and frustrated. And I'm just curious, like, what have you seen or in your work with women. Have you had the opportunity to work, work with women and see that their marriages were able to change once they started reaffirming that boundary and, you know, claiming, stepping into that confidence, or sometimes as a wife just need, you know, if the abuse continues, uh, just need to separate or does it case by case.

Jenny DuBay:

It's case by case and I have seen both. Mm-hmm. You know, for someone to change their behavior and not to be coercive, not to be abusive, that change has to come from within them. So I see a lot of women being like, well, what can I do to help my husband? What can I do? Well, okay, what, what you can do is set your own boundaries and you can change. And a lot of people are like, oh, what? Why do I, I'm not doing. These behaviors. But what I mean by they can change is that they can be, they can set their boundaries and really stick to them. And you know, we can't change anyone else, but just there are some people who, when it's brought lovingly, brought to their attention, look, this is, this is coercion. This is damaging our marriage. Um, if they have the humility to be able to look at themselves and be like, wow, you know what I am, it's right. She's right. I'm doing this thing that is, I'm not being a good husband. I need to change. That can happen, you know, with that humility and walking with God and healing their own wounds from why are they doing this behavior. Um, certainly. And then there are the instances where a husband is absolutely no. He's, he's, he's gonna demand what he's gonna demand. And if you don't give him what he, what he wants, um, the negative behavior will increase. And there are certainly definitely times when separation and even divorce is the only recourse. And that's sad. It's a tragedy, but it is something too that women need to realize that. Yes, marriage is a sacrament and we need to treat it as a sacrament. However, not all marriages are sacramental. Um, and the church, that's why the church has an annulment process. And, and the code of Canon law says that if you're in a difficult situation, you have every right to separate.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Jenny DuBay:

It goes on to say, if that situation resolves, then you should come back together. But in a case where someone is absolutely not willing to change or look at their behavior, the situation doesn't resolve,

Sarah Bartel:

right? Because the wife needs, she has a duty to protect her safety, her dignity as a daughter of God and right. The safety and dignity of, uh, any children that may also be suffering this, um, abusive behavior from the part of the husband. Um, do you find that if, um. If there's sexual coercion and emotional abuse, that it's, are there patterns of control usually that go along with that, where the rest of the household that, you know, any kids are in harm's way just from like emotional abuse from the dad as well, or, um, is it really, um, kinda more limited and tar, confined and targeted? This one area.

Jenny DuBay:

It depends when it comes to like emotional, psychological abuse. Um, quite often it's directed just at the wife, but, and that, but there are cases when it's also directed at the children, especially as they get older. So it really depends. But if the emotional, psychological, psychological abuse is not directed at the children. But only at the mother. The children still suffer because they see it. They see a lot more. They hear a lot more than we give them credit for. They still suffer. They suffer that confusion. They suffer seeing their father treat their mother in this abusive way and learning. That's the way you treat women. Mm-hmm. Um, that is hugely, hugely damaging. So even if they're not direct targets, they are indirect targets. So it is very damaging.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. They're being formed by that. So, and even if they're not seeing what's happening in the bedroom, you know, with the parent's sexual relationship, would, would they be likely to pick up on that kind of, that pattern of control? Um, and the emotional abuse that is kind of going hand in hand with that? Or could it be just sexual coercion happening? Everything else is okay in the home.

Jenny DuBay:

Yeah. I mean, it sometimes it is just the sexual coercion is happening and everything else is okay. Um, but again, children are, they have a knack of just their intuition. They're, they're, they know things. So when something isn't quite right with mommy, um, they sense it. They sense it, and it can just create just this, you know, sense of sorrow within them. They don't know what's going on. They're confused or. Um, you know, it, it, it varies, but they, they sense things when things, when it's not quite right in the home. So,

Sarah Bartel:

yeah. Actually, Jenny, I totally agree with you, and that is like how, part of how I encourage women to take the time and energy to focus on doing whatever it takes to make their love life mutually satisfying and worthwhile because it radiates out right in your attitudes, in your body language. And the kids do invisibly pick that up and it can help. Form them, you know, for the better when things are going well. You know, they all just little comments you might make that don't directly relate to sex, but that just, you know, the kids put a picture together, they're so, um, perceptive and they pick up the, you know, the emotional tone of the home and, and they can kind of yeah, form their own attitudes about what sex is and how men and women relate and all of that. So yeah, that's. It's pretty important to get this right because we're forming a whole new generation and their, their attitudes about how husbands and wives relate to each other and whether sex is a joyful, mutual thing for marriage or something to be ashamed of, or a duty, or a right or an entitlement. All of that does get passed down. Sure does. Um, Jenny, I guess what, so how would you, um, encourage a wife to lovingly bring her husband to awareness that, you know, as she sets her boundaries and maintains them, that if he PEs n um, pouts that that is not loving it, that is coercive. Do you have like some scripts or some models for how to have that conversation? It's hard to

Jenny DuBay:

have a script because each co it, it's so different with the couples and like, okay, how is, how is the husband going to respond? Is it gonna, you know, so it's hard to have a script, but again, it's, you know, doing, having those conversations when you're in that, in your safe space, um, feeling, feeling safe, feeling like, okay, I can, I can, I'm empowered to have this conversation lovingly, um, trying to get this across. But again. Yeah, it really is just a matter of like, letting your husband know, okay, if you violate this boundary, it doesn't, it's not gonna make me give in. I'm going to, and just the, the key really is sticking to that boundary. No matter how much you just wanna give in because you're tired, you know, uhhuh. When you violate your own boundary, then that's giving the message that the boundaries don't really mean anything. So you can set as many boundaries as you want. Who cares, as long as, you know, you get pestered enough it, so it's gonna keep on happening versus, you know, keeping to that boundary. Um, hopefully we'll help reduce that. You know, again, it depends on the reaction of the husband. It's just so each situation is different and you know, as we talked about before, is he also being abusive in other ways? So there's a more complicated dynamic or, yeah.

Sarah Bartel:

Well, thank you. That's really helpful and really encouraging too, to just stick to those boundaries and just do that with confidence. Um, I love to ask you about your book, don't Plant Your Seeds Among Thorns, A Catholic Guide to recognizing and healing from Domestic Abuse. Um, I'm so grateful you wrote this. Can you just, um, share a little bit about the story of writing the book and what inspired you and who it's for? Yeah. What was sort of like guiding you as you put it together?

Jenny DuBay:

Well, I started writing, um, a substack blog, create soul space.org, and I did this just kind of for my own self. Um, a previous relationship that I was in was abusive.

Sarah Bartel:

I'm, and

Jenny DuBay:

so I was like writing, uh, writing's very healing for me. So I'm like, okay, no one's really gonna read this, but I'm good, you know, it's good for me. And come to find out. Uh, very quickly got a very large following, so I'm like, okay, people are actually reading this and asking for more. And, um, then later I studied to become a trauma informed coach, the narcissistic abuse specialist, all of that to also get that professional, um, education and to help others because there that's was as I was, as I was healing, I'm like, I wanna, I, I wanna use my suffering for good. Oh, wow. Like, okay, God's permissive, will he permitted this? Now I'm out of that relationship. I'm, I'm healing I'm, but what can I do? You know? So it was really a lot of, um, inspiration from where I started with those articles and then hearing the stories of other women and what they needed. Like, okay, I need to understand what domestic abuse is. You think, I mean it. Would seem obvious, but it's not.'cause a lot, I've heard so many times, well, I'm not being abused, I've never been hit, but, and they'll go into detail. I'm like, that's emotional abuse, that's psychological abuse. So I wanted to really write about what that is. So my book doesn't focus on physical abuse. It's that covert that can confusing. So just recognizing what it is and what the church teaches. Mm-hmm. That was really important for me because I was hearing women after women come to me.'cause I, the, the book is for Catholic women.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Jenny DuBay:

But there's not a book written about domestic abuse from a Catholic perspective, and so there's confusion about, oh, what does the church teach?

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm. Um.

Jenny DuBay:

You know, am I stuck? So for example, I quote, there's a document, um, from the U-S-C-C-B. They wrote it in 1992, revised it in 2002, and then again in 2022 I think. So it's up to date, but in it, the US Bishop State Abuse and not divorce breakup marriages. That is the of the Catholic church, and that is what women need to hear. And if they get to the point where, okay, the he's not gonna change, I am, I need to get out for my own safety. Um, what is it, what about annulments? What does that all about? What does that look like? So I go into detail in the, in this book too, because I wanted them to be able to have a resource of, um. Really a solid foundation of knowing what the church teaches, because often they can be told something that's incorrect by their spouse or even by their church. So I wanted to, to give them that and then give them resources such as my Substack. Um, I belong to a. A, a community called Hopes Garden. They're an online community. They're incredible. We offer support groups, courses, um, prayer groups, resources, all kinds of things for women who, well, really for any Catholic woman who wants to grow in the love of the Divine Bride groom. But we do have like, support groups for domestic abuse, betrayal, trauma, just tons of support. Um, tons of education, tons of healing. So I wanted to be able to. Give them that resource in the book as well.

Sarah Bartel:

Wow. I recommend Hope's Garden all the time. That's Wonderful's, such's a wonderful resource. And yeah, well, their woman's husband has been using porn or she suffered betrayal trauma from an affair. Um, or yeah, suffering, um, a, um, abuse in, you know, any of these different ways that abuse can happen is such a great, great resource. That's wonderful. Oh wow. So you mentioned that in the book and, and Point women. There as well. Yeah. And I, it is covert emotional and psychological abuse and, um, but it's so good to just have it articulated clearly by the, the US bishops. It is abuse and not divorce that breaks up marriage. Um, and that, you know, you, I love that they. They really affirm the dignity of women there and of wives suffering abuse and you know that you have a, a right to protect that dignity. Um, really an obligation to do that. And that that dignity can be eroded just as much by psychological and emotional abuse as by physical abuse. Absolutely. Can you give, yeah. Jenny, can you just briefly give some examples of types of behaviors that fall into that category of, you know, emotional and psychological abuse that are

Jenny DuBay:

pretty common? Yeah. So, um, well demeaning, so making comments, especially in front of others, but even just you demeaning your, you know, a consistent pattern of saying things like you are, you're. Fill in the blank. Really something, anything that's demeaning or a put down, and then it's just a consistent thing. It's not like, okay, you get in an argument at one time and you call your spouse something that is wildly inappropriate. And then there's apology. No, it's this pattern of really breaking down her spirit. That's what demeaning is. You know, being demeaning, belittling, um, often those behaviors will be. Called, oh, I'm just making a joke. Um, that's not a joke. You know, that's, that's a, that's being abusive. Um, name calling, insults, neglect. Like if you just, the sp consistent spousal neglect, just stonewalling and you know that for punishment reasons, you know, like, I'm gonna punish you. Especially we get back into the coercion. That's another way of like sexually coer, co coercing someone. It's like, okay, if, if you don't give me what I want, then I'm gonna stonewall. I'm gonna be give you the silent treatment for the next week. I'm gonna punish you. That's abusive behavior. Ouch. Wow. Also, um, destruction of property. So like something cannot be physically abusive towards the body, but can still be physically abusive. Like if they're gonna throw things purposely because they're mad, punch a hole in the wall or something like that, that's physical abuse. A lot of women don't realize that that. But that is a form of intimidation. Like, okay, I just punched a hole in the wall because I'm mad at you. That's sending that subliminal message of like, you could be next, your face could be the next wall that I punched. You know? Right. And if there is never any physical abuse, there's that fear. And that fear creates that power over. So if you are afraid of your spouse, they have power over you because you're gonna do what they say so that they don't, you know, do something worse, so to speak. So, um, any violence towards pets? Aw. That's another thing that's like, okay, you, that's obviously a big red flag. Um, when a victim isn't allowed to have their own opinion. Oh, and again, this is consistently like, I can't, even if it's about something small, like I can't disagree with you politically. Okay? So we have vari political opinions around the world, but if you, uh, disagree, it's not like, ah, you know, I don't agree with you. I think. I, I think you're wrong even, but you can have your own opinion. It's like, no, you cannot. You have to believe it, I believe.

Sarah Bartel:

Or those, and

Jenny DuBay:

yeah, being forced into that.

Sarah Bartel:

Mm-hmm.

Jenny DuBay:

Um, that's abuse behavior.

Sarah Bartel:

Yeah. Or belittling their opinion, would you say? But like, yeah, belittling definitely. Yes. Wow. Um. A lot of the Yes, I can totally see the intimidation spousal. Yeah. The, um, belittling name calling. I'd like to hear more about spousal neglect. Is this more than, just, more than stonewalling? I mean, just stonewall stonewalling is terrible. That's really hurtful. Um, are there other ways of that there could be spousal neglect that's abusive.

Jenny DuBay:

Well, again, keeping in mind that it has to be like a pattern. So it's not like, you know, your spouse is stressed out and he wants to go and lock himself in a room and be alone, you know, once in a while because he just needs some downtime. That's different than using, so spousal neglect, it being abusive is using this as a retaliatory way, so it's not like I need some downtime. Mm-hmm. So me time, because I have to recharge my batteries and explaining that to your spouse, it is using it as a coercive tool to get what one wants. I am going to punish you by this neglect by not giving you. So it can take the form of not giving emotional attention, um, refusing to give attention or help out with the kids or with the task where a wife is just completely exhausted, but she has to do everything and he's just gonna go now, do his own thing, um, because he feels that he, that's his right. Um. Or again, spousal neglect can be financial neglect. So not, so if a woman stays at home and doesn't make her own income and he's controlling the finances completely, so the point that she can't spend, including what she needs, you know, she needs a new pair of shoes'cause hers has holes in it. Well, she's not allowed to, you know, that's financial neglect. Um, not. Having the ability to go to medical appointments, even though I don't have my own car, so I need to drive. No, you can't go, you know, that's neglect. Wow. So again, and those things, they, they happen, they do.

Sarah Bartel:

So again, the title of your book is Don't Cast Your Pearls Before Thorns. I, oh, don't plant, don't plant your thorns. It take, it's taken from a verse in Jeremiah. Oh. Can you tell? Okay. Don't plant your seeds among thorns. Sorry for me speaking there. Um, can you tell us more about that verse and what really drew you to that for your title?

Jenny DuBay:

Well, as Jeremiah four, three and it, when I read it, it j that just sparked something. In me, you know, because I think of like, you know, planting your seeds among thorns and that, that calls to mind, that Jesus parable too, of like, you know, throwing this, where do the seeds grow? Seeds grow in a fertile ground. And it's, and so for me it was like, you know, a marriage should be that fertile ground, that fertile ground of love, respect. R responsibility, mutual self-giving. And when you don't have that and you are planting your seeds, in other words, your, your emotional energy, your love, you're, and you're, you're planting that in this thorn patch, you're not getting anything back. You, and so often in abusive relationships, they're just, the, the woman becomes dry. Like she's just, it, it's so difficult'cause you're giving, giving, giving, giving and not getting. And that is just so tragic and so sad. So that's. Why I named the book, don't Plant Your Seeds Among Thorns.

Sarah Bartel:

I think it's very evocative. I can really speak to that situation. So many wives find themselves in, well, how beautiful that now you are able to help and guide and, and coach other women. Um, if someone's listening to this and she would like to work with you, what's the best way for her to connect with you? Jenny?

Jenny DuBay:

Just Jenny dube.com

Sarah Bartel:

right?

Jenny DuBay:

And if they go up to the tab of, um, help and Healing, that's where they, they'll get the link for, you know, contacting me, um, asking more about coaching or learning more about my coaching. Great.

Sarah Bartel:

Okay, wonderful. Jenny dubay.com. We'll put that in the show notes. And then you also mentioned your substack@createsoulspace.org. Is that right? Or your blog? That's correct. Great. Wonderful. Thank you so much. This has really been an incredible gift, having the honor of speaking with you. Um, I guess in closing would um, would be one last like, I don't know, uh, nugget of encouragement you'd like every woman to know? I'd like every Catholic woman

Jenny DuBay:

to know you're not stuck.'cause I hear that so often. I'm stuck. I'm in a sacramental marriage. I'm stuck. And to let them know that they are not stuck, they have the healing guidance of our Lord Jesus is there. Jesus mourns with them and walks with them and wants them to be free and there should be no guilt. So it's like releasing that guilt to him, giving that guilt to Jesus. Letting, just reminding themselves again, my body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and that's what God wants for me. And the church teaches from the, again, US Catholic bishops. We have quotes from Pope Francis from JP two. I mean, the church teaches that a woman deserves love and respect and that mutual self-giving in marriage. So just remember that.

Sarah Bartel:

Beautiful. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Jenny. God bless all of you women listening, and remember that you are the Lord's delight. See you in the next episode.